TOPIC: Build Diversity

Fred K wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Fred K wrote: It's fun being able to do a variety of things without a huge drop in the primary element a group counts on from your character. That really gets promoted by capping damage output or capping stats.

I'm not sure stat capping is as necessary as making sure the alternative options are viable. Or even ensuring that every class has more than 1 viable option on what to do. Wizards and Druids have multiple things they could choose to do each round (cast attack spell, cast non-attack spell, polymorph attack, melee attack, ranged attack, wand, scroll) Other classes have much less option on what to do (Fighters, Barbarians, Monk - either attack melee or attack ranged)

Stat capping is a bit heavy handed, I agree. It is also true this problem impacts fighter types as well. Druids and bards have the most diversity right now then elf wizard and paladin. After that, it is what flavor of melee or ranged combatant do you want to be. That allows for some variety such as a dwarf fighter fishing for big crits versus a retribution build dwarf fighter.

Fred K wrote: Clerics are probably the biggest victims of this since it takes a lot of gear in specific slots to max out healing capacity. It's hard to make a cleric that is good in melee, can be a good front line combatant, and really optimizes healing.

Yes, and no. Clerics have a lot to shift around to be strongest at a particular aspect, but if you're willing to give up a couple points of healing, it isn't so bad. I put together a Cleric build that is +22 healing while being +19 on ranged to-hit. Biggest trade-offs wound up being AC and HP.

I’ve found that having a nightmare/epic capable cleric is exceedingly difficult unless it is just healing or AC focused. Big damage bonuses aren’t common for the cleric without giving up a lot of healing. If you give up the healing, nightmare or harder parties are really going to notice that since you are the primary healer. You can get +20 to hit but your damage will probably be 20-30 without giving up more than 3 or 4 points of healing.

Presuming unlimited token budget, and counting 2020 tokens, the best hybrid for damage and healing I could come up with was:

+25 healing
Melee: +23 hit, +34 damage
HP: 62
AC: 16
42 str / 9 dex / 18 con
20 fort / 8 ref / 19 will

In the real world though, with a token budget that limits you to mostly URs, It is really, really, hard to get over +9 heal, +9 hit, and +9 damage.

Harlax wrote: As a coach, I can tell you I don’t give 10 seconds of time thinking about build diversity.

Thanks John,
EXACTLY

I’m not sure where the of NEEDING build diversity comes from but Harlax will probably agree that uniformity only occurs amongst the top 1 or 2 percent of players.
There are less than 300 Ro7P which unequivocally BIS. I don’t know how many RoSEC are out there and I have seen some debate here on the forums about being BIS but there is a very limited supply of them so again only in maybe 10-15% of builds.
These are only 2 of the simplest and easiest examples. There are many more.

IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view.

Let the flaming begin.

Endgame wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Fred K wrote: It's fun being able to do a variety of things without a huge drop in the primary element a group counts on from your character. That really gets promoted by capping damage output or capping stats.

I'm not sure stat capping is as necessary as making sure the alternative options are viable. Or even ensuring that every class has more than 1 viable option on what to do. Wizards and Druids have multiple things they could choose to do each round (cast attack spell, cast non-attack spell, polymorph attack, melee attack, ranged attack, wand, scroll) Other classes have much less option on what to do (Fighters, Barbarians, Monk - either attack melee or attack ranged)

Stat capping is a bit heavy handed, I agree. It is also true this problem impacts fighter types as well. Druids and bards have the most diversity right now then elf wizard and paladin. After that, it is what flavor of melee or ranged combatant do you want to be. That allows for some variety such as a dwarf fighter fishing for big crits versus a retribution build dwarf fighter.

Fred K wrote: Clerics are probably the biggest victims of this since it takes a lot of gear in specific slots to max out healing capacity. It's hard to make a cleric that is good in melee, can be a good front line combatant, and really optimizes healing.

Yes, and no. Clerics have a lot to shift around to be strongest at a particular aspect, but if you're willing to give up a couple points of healing, it isn't so bad. I put together a Cleric build that is +22 healing while being +19 on ranged to-hit. Biggest trade-offs wound up being AC and HP.

I’ve found that having a nightmare/epic capable cleric is exceedingly difficult unless it is just healing or AC focused. Big damage bonuses aren’t common for the cleric without giving up a lot of healing. If you give up the healing, nightmare or harder parties are really going to notice that since you are the primary healer. You can get +20 to hit but your damage will probably be 20-30 without giving up more than 3 or 4 points of healing.

Presuming unlimited token budget, and counting 2020 tokens, the best hybrid for damage and healing I could come up with was:

+25 healing
Melee: +23 hit, +34 damage
HP: 62
AC: 16
42 str / 9 dex / 18 con
20 fort / 8 ref / 19 will

In the real world though, with a token budget that limits you to mostly URs, It is really, really, hard to get over +9 heal, +9 hit, and +9 damage.

16/17 ac 32 and 20 healing 85hp and this is solid for most epic level runs.

when I get my 2020 tokens healing will go up to 23

Bob Chasan wrote:

Harlax wrote: As a coach, I can tell you I don’t give 10 seconds of time thinking about build diversity.

Thanks John,
EXACTLY

I’m not sure where the of NEEDING build diversity comes from but Harlax will probably agree that uniformity only occurs amongst the top 1 or 2 percent of players.
There are less than 300 Ro7P which unequivocally BIS. I don’t know how many RoSEC are out there and I have seen some debate here on the forums about being BIS but there is a very limited supply of them so again only in maybe 10-15% of builds.
These are only 2 of the simplest and easiest examples. There are many more.

IMHO we like to solve problems here on the forums that are only perceived problems due to a myopic view.

Let the flaming begin.

100% agree. A limited perspective based on a small echo chamber of ideas can inflate minute molehills into imaginary mountains.

Harlax wrote: As a coach, I can tell you I don’t give 10 seconds of time thinking about build diversity.

It’s a good thing that coaches are not the intended audience of build diversity questions! Players do appreciate our coaches though, especially the good ones that help us timely into our assigned run queue!