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TOPIC: Safehold Program Thoughts?

Safehold Program Thoughts? 2 months 1 day ago #61

I used to world staff a large LARP that started landholding and titles. It was a mess. It can be a fun grind and subsystem for seasoned players but the overhead to the game in terms of work hours was tremendous. It widened the gap between seasoned players and new players massively. And narratively it became a noose. There can only be so many land holders and free land that we can show on a map, if that makes sense.

Just the idea of using them as exchange posts sounds great, but ends up introducing a large amount of back end work for TD staff without much benefit. In this scenario you would be adding an entirely new process that has the potential to be just as complicated as typical exchange work.

Land owning leads to wanting to implement things like taxes and land raids. All cool in theory but super difficult to support and maintain.

A possible solution is something where some adventures require someone in the party to be a landholder. And instead of doing a typical 7 room dungeon it's more of a tower defense. You would need to think through the rewards and if it's feasible.

My TL:DR is landholding is a slippery slope to nightmarish overhead.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 2 months 1 day ago #62

Skylar wrote: I used to world staff a large LARP that started landholding and titles. It was a mess. It can be a fun grind and subsystem for seasoned players but the overhead to the game in terms of work hours was tremendous. It widened the gap between seasoned players and new players massively. And narratively it became a noose. There can only be so many land holders and free land that we can show on a map, if that makes sense.

Just the idea of using them as exchange posts sounds great, but ends up introducing a large amount of back end work for TD staff without much benefit. In this scenario you would be adding an entirely new process that has the potential to be just as complicated as typical exchange work.

Land owning leads to wanting to implement things like taxes and land raids. All cool in theory but super difficult to support and maintain.

A possible solution is something where some adventures require someone in the party to be a landholder. And instead of doing a typical 7 room dungeon it's more of a tower defense. You would need to think through the rewards and if it's feasible.

My TL:DR is landholding is a slippery slope to nightmarish overhead.


I agree with a lot of what is in this post.

Maybe start with just one level of these items to see how it works and make it a prerequisite to sign up for a "grind" level run where the monsters try to take over your tower/landholding/inn/etc.. A lot of veterans have been asking for a return for grind.

I would avoid adding too much complexity to the token collection side of the game, at least until the fragment patron item is done.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 2 months 1 day ago #63

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OrionW wrote:

Skylar wrote: I used to world staff a large LARP that started landholding and titles. It was a mess. It can be a fun grind and subsystem for seasoned players but the overhead to the game in terms of work hours was tremendous. It widened the gap between seasoned players and new players massively. And narratively it became a noose. There can only be so many land holders and free land that we can show on a map, if that makes sense.

Just the idea of using them as exchange posts sounds great, but ends up introducing a large amount of back end work for TD staff without much benefit. In this scenario you would be adding an entirely new process that has the potential to be just as complicated as typical exchange work.

Land owning leads to wanting to implement things like taxes and land raids. All cool in theory but super difficult to support and maintain.

A possible solution is something where some adventures require someone in the party to be a landholder. And instead of doing a typical 7 room dungeon it's more of a tower defense. You would need to think through the rewards and if it's feasible.

My TL:DR is landholding is a slippery slope to nightmarish overhead.


I agree with a lot of what is in this post.

Maybe start with just one level of these items to see how it works and make it a prerequisite to sign up for a "grind" level run where the monsters try to take over your tower/landholding/inn/etc.. A lot of veterans have been asking for a return for grind.

I would avoid adding too much complexity to the token collection side of the game, at least until the fragment patron item is done.

I don't think the fragment item is really a consideration-it's one new token a year and they've already been doing the same basic thing with Skull Con/Dragon Orbs in the past, just now it's Ring Con/Parchment Fragments.

I kinda dig the idea of making it a basis for Grind, though

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 2 months 1 day ago #64

NightGod wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Skylar wrote: I used to world staff a large LARP that started landholding and titles. It was a mess. It can be a fun grind and subsystem for seasoned players but the overhead to the game in terms of work hours was tremendous. It widened the gap between seasoned players and new players massively. And narratively it became a noose. There can only be so many land holders and free land that we can show on a map, if that makes sense.

Just the idea of using them as exchange posts sounds great, but ends up introducing a large amount of back end work for TD staff without much benefit. In this scenario you would be adding an entirely new process that has the potential to be just as complicated as typical exchange work.

Land owning leads to wanting to implement things like taxes and land raids. All cool in theory but super difficult to support and maintain.

A possible solution is something where some adventures require someone in the party to be a landholder. And instead of doing a typical 7 room dungeon it's more of a tower defense. You would need to think through the rewards and if it's feasible.

My TL:DR is landholding is a slippery slope to nightmarish overhead.


I agree with a lot of what is in this post.

Maybe start with just one level of these items to see how it works and make it a prerequisite to sign up for a "grind" level run where the monsters try to take over your tower/landholding/inn/etc.. A lot of veterans have been asking for a return for grind.

I would avoid adding too much complexity to the token collection side of the game, at least until the fragment patron item is done.

I don't think the fragment item is really a consideration-it's one new token a year and they've already been doing the same basic thing with Skull Con/Dragon Orbs in the past, just now it's Ring Con/Parchment Fragments.

I kinda dig the idea of making it a basis for Grind, though


I'm not sure it's a great idea to introduce something that locks new players out of a Dungeon run at a standard convention, even if it's Grind.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 2 months 2 hours ago #65

My thoughts:

1 Lord/Lady Con would be awesome. One time or recurring special event only for land holders.
2 a map of landholders sound great!
3 What if a Safehold meant you could help equip your party before the dungeon starts? Especially useful for PUGs where people dont have a lot of tokens.
Level 1: in the coaching room you have your blacksmith sharpen one weapon (+2 to hit for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 2: in the coaching room you designate a warrior from your land to defend someone in your party (+2 AC for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 3: In the coaching room a cleric from your land casts protective magic before you depart (+2 to one save fort, ref, will, for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 4: In the coaching room a wizard from your land casts Thornskin on your party (all party members gain 2 retribution damage)
Level 5: Once per game you may call upon a cleric from your land to resurrect a party member.
You can use one ability per game and have access to any tier equal to or below your current safehold level.
Obviously there would need to be balancing for the abilities but I think it would be a great way to help newcomers and not have to drag around a binder full of extra tokens. A little more work for coaches in the starting room but no added stress for DMs except the Level 5 resurrect which could be switched out for another coaching room effect.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 month 3 weeks ago #66

There are some cool thoughts in here already. I'm intrigued by the idea of a safehold, and I'm interested to see where this goes.

I see this is an out of game place, where parties rest and side quests happen. I really enjoyed the mechanic the Dragon Age Origins game had.

• I like the idea that there's a place on a map that your stronghold get randomly assigned to. This puts you in a territory or faction on the map. safeholds could be traded. I get that map management might be hard, so maybe just 'this is area your safehold is in'.
• Level one could be hardcore player obtainable and then scale up from there.
• There should be no time limit on building safeholds and leveling them up.

Out-of-game befits:
○ Convention bag check <- I think this makes sense as a level 1 benefit. First thing to do with a place is store your stuff in it.
○ Adventure's guild membership
○ Yearly treasure pull
○ Tavern entrance + a drink at a TD event
○ The ability to design a small stronghold banner that gets pined to board at conventions.
○ The option to enter a yearly giveaway for an old TD prop.
○ A birthday or holiday card from TD.
○ Extra time on a zoom call after a VTD run.

Mini-Game benefits:
○ A stronghold only mini event like a grind.
○ Maybe a some sort of tower defense.
○ Storeyscape puzzle quests.

Other ideas
○ Level x gives you and alchemist, which gives you a free healing potion or scroll as some interval
○ Level y gives you a blacksmith, which gives you a +1 one to a stat.
○ Level z gives you a market which gives you a free trade good at some interval
○ Level AA gives you a voucher for a "Special" at some interval
○ Level BB gives you an armory, Which give the access to a pre-generated Rare builds for every class that can be applied to the party on a run. So you can help newbies on PUG runs.

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Last edit: by Graven.

Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 month 2 weeks ago #67

Acid Pezz wrote: My thoughts:
...
3 What if a Safehold meant you could help equip your party before the dungeon starts? Especially useful for PUGs where people dont have a lot of tokens.
Level 1: in the coaching room you have your blacksmith sharpen one weapon (+2 to hit for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 2: in the coaching room you designate a warrior from your land to defend someone in your party (+2 AC for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 3: In the coaching room a cleric from your land casts protective magic before you depart (+2 to one save fort, ref, will, for one party member for the dungeon)
Level 4: In the coaching room a wizard from your land casts Thornskin on your party (all party members gain 2 retribution damage)
Level 5: Once per game you may call upon a cleric from your land to resurrect a party member.
You can use one ability per game and have access to any tier equal to or below your current safehold level.
Obviously there would need to be balancing for the abilities but I think it would be a great way to help newcomers and not have to drag around a binder full of extra tokens. A little more work for coaches in the starting room but no added stress for DMs except the Level 5 resurrect which could be switched out for another coaching room effect.
[/spoiler]


I think something like this would be really cool, and I think somewhere earlier in the thread someone mentioned hiring NPCs to help you during an adventure. So what if you could "hire" different NPCs that would reside in your Safehold, and they would have some kind of limited effect or offer a hint to help the party before or during an adventure? The NPCs could even have different "levels" that you could invest in, and the higher the level, the better the boon they impart. You could spend resources (trade goods and/or gold) to level them up, and switch out the NPCs that you house, but the number of NPCs housed at your Safehold would depend on the level of the Safehold itself. I think that would mean that you would also have to limit the number of NPCs you could "hire" for each adventure, too (maybe also based on the level of your Stronghold, or the Player level or something like that). NPC examples:

Scout/Spy - Rumor Mill: A hint or clue that tells the party what they might encounter during the adventure so they know what kind of special or situational gear to equip. For example, "There are tales of travelers being attacked by some unseen foes," would hint that you should equip an item that helps against invisible or maybe incorporeal enemies. "Wildfires have been spreading through the lands, particularly odd for this time of year," could hint that you might be taking some fire damage in the battles ahead. The higher the level, the better the intel, or maybe you receive multiple rumors. A higher level Scout could give the party a clue (similar to Rogue's Clue) for puzzle rooms.

Alchemist - Brew a Potion: the party could draw a random potion from a pool of potions separated by rarity. Rarity pool that you get to draw from and number of potions you get would be based on the Alchemist's level (maybe 1 or 2 potions max per adventure) This would also be a way for TD to "recycle" potions and other consumables that are turned in during the runs.

Artificer - "Take this, it's dangerous": similar to Alchemist's Brew a Potion, but for consumable weapons like grenades, bullets, arrows, etc.

Blacksmith - Weapon Sharpening: Acid's idea of a boost to one party member's To Hit and/or Damage for the dungeon. Boost would depend on the Blacksmith's level. Perhaps a higher level blacksmith could sharpen multiple weapons to give a boost to multiple people. Or a Blacksmith would need to be a certain level to be able to Sharpen weapons of higher rarities (for example, a level 3 Blacksmith could sharpen Common, Uncommon, and Rare Weapons but not Ultra Rare Weapons).

Mercenary - Hired Help: Acid's idea of adding to a party member's AC by hiring someone to protect them. Maybe a higher level Mercenary could also get it's own puck to slide during combat? I imagine you would have to make this really easy for DMs, no stat card for the Merc, no bonuses, just simple hit or miss. Merc's weapon rarity could be limited by their level, and the weapon must be provided by the party of course... Maybe you can only hire a Merc if your party has less than 10 players?

Chef - Well Fed: Your party gets a boost to their max HP for the adventure. A higher level Chef gives you more HP. They could give the party "trail rations" in the form of a healing potion.

That's all I can think of right now, but there are SO many possibilities!

If people think that getting a couple extra consumable tokens from Safehold NPCs would upset the trade good/treasure economy, then they could "expire" at the end of the run. If you use it, great! If not, you turn it in at the end. If you forget to turn it in, it's marked (maybe the way old consumables were punched?) to indicate that it can't be mulched for trade goods.

Depending on the cost of the Safehold, I think most people will be pooling their resources to create one, so I think using the Safehold in a way that benefits the entire party makes the most sense. Perhaps it can also impart some kind of individual benefit as well, like admission to a special event every once in a while, but in that case, would the Safehold have to be a Soul Forged item (or whatever TD calls them)?

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Last edit: by Noodle.

Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 month 2 weeks ago #68

I will throw out an idea for a safehold reward. They safehold token could even your stats if they are at an odd amount of dex, str, con, wis, etc.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 week 2 days ago #69

okay, i have read a lot of the posts here, BUT NOT ALL. this is what the first thought was that went through my mind.

safehold is another name for bank with some colorful "stuff" thrown in.

- land - generates resources. how much gp you spend to buy land will determine size of your estate and how much you get back.

- gold - generates interest.

- trade goods - used to trade between players or used in transmuting.

a benefit to players is not having to mail stuff around and the same for TD, thus saving postage for everyone.
the big benefit for TD is not having to keep/order so many trade items.

i can't see keeping equipment in a safehold as being workable as far as going into a run/coaching. i also don't see TD wanting the responsibility either.

please feel free to pick this apart or expound on it. B)
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Last edit: by smakdown.

Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 week 1 day ago #70

smakdown wrote: okay, i have read a lot of the posts here, BUT NOT ALL. this is what the first thought was that went through my mind.

safehold is another name for bank with some colorful "stuff" thrown in.

- land - generates resources. how much gp you spend to buy land will determine size of your estate and how much you get back.

- gold - generates interest.

- trade goods - used to trade between players or used in transmuting.

a benefit to players is not having to mail stuff around and the same for TD, thus saving postage for everyone.
the big benefit for TD is not having to keep/order so many trade items.

i can't see keeping equipment in a safehold as being workable as far as going into a run/coaching. i also don't see TD wanting the responsibility either.

please feel free to pick this apart or expound on it. B)


Cool idea!! Makes sense, I'd be on board with this.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 week 1 day ago #71

Matthew Hayward wrote: I wasn't sure where to put this, but it seemed like maybe this thread would be a decent place.

I recently became aware of two interactive event spaces that seem to share DNA with True Dungeon, and thought maybe elements of their approach could serve as inspiration for Safehold ideas:

1. Omega Mart:

area15.com/experiences/meow-wolf/

To be clear - the connection to Safeholds is tenuous, I just think these might be mineable for good ideas about TD like experiences with more permanence.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who was reminded of TD by the Meow Wolf installations. The one in Denver is even *more* immersive and TD-adjacent.

The big Safehold connection is in the RFID-enabled cards ("boop cards") they give you to participate in the interactive quests. Something that unlocks content like that would be neat. Not sure how best to do that in the framework of a 12 minute room. It may need to be a dedicated space in the entry area that you can explore/interact with at your leisure.

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Safehold Program Thoughts? 1 week 18 hours ago #72

Mike Steele wrote:

Corbin Waters wrote: The more I think on Safeholds and read people's various ideas, the more I start to feel like I'm falling further and further behind the curve as a newer player coming into True Dungeon, and that's even after investing money into the game outside of just purchasing VTD tickets. I still definitely enjoy playing True Dungeon and will certainly continue to do so in some capacity; I'm just honestly a bit concerned with how much new stuff seems to be coming along that I'm almost certainly going to be locked out of for the forseeable future if not permanently.

It also, honestly, feels a bit NFT-Adjacent which is always a huge negative for me in any space, but without the details of how they are going to work that's just a hunch based on the fact that land is being sold in a game so it's a bit of an unfounded concern at the moment.


I do understand what you're saying, it does seem like the gap between the top and bottom in TD is getting larger and larger. It's been getting larger consistently almost since the beginning, but seems to be picking up the pace. I hope the Safeholds don't create too much of a gap between land holders and non-land holders.


The escalating power gap is a very real thing. As someone who has been playing every year since 2003 (currently at max possible xp), who has spent around $50,000 on tokens over the years, I still feel like a newbie when I run with a maxed-out Nightmare Patron group. I can't fathom what it's like for actual newer players. I certainly wouldn't want Strongholds to make that gap a whole lot wider.

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Last edit: by Jason Brown.
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