TOPIC: 2024 Rare Token Images < Part Three

Endgame wrote:

NightGod wrote: I don't agree that any poly forms will use the Whetstone. The attack wheel is based on the creature the druid turns in to, not a weapon. It even uses the newly created Trinket slot/keyword (actually, that's a suggestion-make Trinket a keyword, not a slot)

The poly forms don't actually matter for using the whetstone.

Let's presume we have a Druid holding a rare baton of focus in melee main hand and a brawler's horn in the melee offhand, and has an Enchanter's whetstone equipped. This druid is equipping no other equipment but the trollform trinket.

The druid has 11 base str, so they start with +0 melee hit and +0 melee damage. They also start with +0 poly hit, and +0 poly damage.

The Baton of focus does not add to melee hit. However, it's focus ability adds 1 to the poly damage. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +0/+0. Poly: +0/+1.

The Brawler's horn adds +2 melee hit. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +2/+0. Poly: +2/+1.

Both weapons are rare, so the Enchanter's whetstone is now active. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +3/+1. Poly: +3/+2.

The Druid now switches to Troll Form via the trinket. They are swinging with a 9.3 average damage weapon with a modified +3 hit / +2 damage from the above equipment. In effect, the druid is overriding the damage wheel of the Baton of Focus with a 9.33 average damage wheel, while still benefiting from all the other buffs. This is probably too high.

Whetstone cannot be used with polymorph potions. This was clarified in TokenDB last year (they are not weapons).

Edit: oh wait your worried that they use it on a rare weapon before polymorphing? This seems too much of a corner case to impact token design.

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

NightGod wrote: I don't agree that any poly forms will use the Whetstone. The attack wheel is based on the creature the druid turns in to, not a weapon. It even uses the newly created Trinket slot/keyword (actually, that's a suggestion-make Trinket a keyword, not a slot)

The poly forms don't actually matter for using the whetstone.

Let's presume we have a Druid holding a rare baton of focus in melee main hand and a brawler's horn in the melee offhand, and has an Enchanter's whetstone equipped. This druid is equipping no other equipment but the trollform trinket.

The druid has 11 base str, so they start with +0 melee hit and +0 melee damage. They also start with +0 poly hit, and +0 poly damage.

The Baton of focus does not add to melee hit. However, it's focus ability adds 1 to the poly damage. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +0/+0. Poly: +0/+1.

The Brawler's horn adds +2 melee hit. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +2/+0. Poly: +2/+1.

Both weapons are rare, so the Enchanter's whetstone is now active. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +3/+1. Poly: +3/+2.

The Druid now switches to Troll Form via the trinket. They are swinging with a 9.3 average damage weapon with a modified +3 hit / +2 damage from the above equipment. In effect, the druid is overriding the damage wheel of the Baton of Focus with a 9.33 average damage wheel, while still benefiting from all the other buffs. This is probably too high.

Whetstone cannot be used with polymorph potions. This was clarified in TokenDB last year (they are not weapons).

Edit: oh wait your worried that they use it on a rare weapon before polymorphing? This seems too much of a corner case to impact token design.

The whetstone adds to the party card. If the whetstone isn't supposed to add to hit and damage when in poly form, then the app and webpage need to be updated to adjust "poly hit and poly damage"

Ex, look at this character:
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/763948fa-e7bc-4139-a331-03218b9907f4

The whetstone is adding to poly hit and poly damage, so if you switch to troll form, the website will include the hit and damage.

Jeff Martin wrote: The token is poorly worded. The Instant action refers to the transformation -- which is kinda dumb to even worry about. Here is what the Sea Troll potion says now:

Transforms the character into a Sea Troll. The transformation from human(oid) to Sea Troll, or vice versa, is instantaneous. However, since drinking a potion requires a Standard Action, unless the character can drink this potion as a Free Action, the character may not attack the same round this potion is consumed. The effect lasts until the end of the room or until ended by the player–whichever comes first.

I will fix it on the token.

So what kind of action does it now take to activate a Trinket?

I hope NOT Standard Action, because then we're back to wasting a round of combat which strongly discourages polymorphing as a play style (doing nothing for 1 out a typical 3 rounds doesn't help people have fun).

I could get behind using a Free Action to activate the Trinket. This would be no worse than using a polymorph potion with one of the many tokens that allow you to quaff a potion as a free action, and free vs instant makes a lot of difference at high level play but very little difference in Normal play.

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Endgame wrote:

NightGod wrote: I don't agree that any poly forms will use the Whetstone. The attack wheel is based on the creature the druid turns in to, not a weapon. It even uses the newly created Trinket slot/keyword (actually, that's a suggestion-make Trinket a keyword, not a slot)

The poly forms don't actually matter for using the whetstone.

Let's presume we have a Druid holding a rare baton of focus in melee main hand and a brawler's horn in the melee offhand, and has an Enchanter's whetstone equipped. This druid is equipping no other equipment but the trollform trinket.

The druid has 11 base str, so they start with +0 melee hit and +0 melee damage. They also start with +0 poly hit, and +0 poly damage.

The Baton of focus does not add to melee hit. However, it's focus ability adds 1 to the poly damage. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +0/+0. Poly: +0/+1.

The Brawler's horn adds +2 melee hit. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +2/+0. Poly: +2/+1.

Both weapons are rare, so the Enchanter's whetstone is now active. The druid is now marked as follows on the party card:
Melee: +3/+1. Poly: +3/+2.

The Druid now switches to Troll Form via the trinket. They are swinging with a 9.3 average damage weapon with a modified +3 hit / +2 damage from the above equipment. In effect, the druid is overriding the damage wheel of the Baton of Focus with a 9.33 average damage wheel, while still benefiting from all the other buffs. This is probably too high.

Whetstone cannot be used with polymorph potions. This was clarified in TokenDB last year (they are not weapons).

Edit: oh wait your worried that they use it on a rare weapon before polymorphing? This seems too much of a corner case to impact token design.

The whetstone adds to the party card. If the whetstone isn't supposed to add to hit and damage when in poly form, then the app and webpage need to be updated to adjust "poly hit and poly damage"

Ex, look at this character:
tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/763948fa-e7bc-4139-a331-03218b9907f4

The whetstone is adding to poly hit and poly damage, so if you switch to troll form, the website will include the hit and damage.

I misunderstood your statement originally, as of last year, polymorph potions were classified as weapons so you could use the whetstone on the potion. This is no longer the case.

Oils, whetstone, etc. on the equipped weapon still apply provided they are used prior to polymorph.

David Zych wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: The token is poorly worded. The Instant action refers to the transformation -- which is kinda dumb to even worry about. Here is what the Sea Troll potion says now:

Transforms the character into a Sea Troll. The transformation from human(oid) to Sea Troll, or vice versa, is instantaneous. However, since drinking a potion requires a Standard Action, unless the character can drink this potion as a Free Action, the character may not attack the same round this potion is consumed. The effect lasts until the end of the room or until ended by the player–whichever comes first.

I will fix it on the token.

So what kind of action does it now take to activate a Trinket?

I hope NOT Standard Action, because then we're back to wasting a round of combat which strongly discourages polymorphing as a play style (doing nothing for 1 out a typical 3 rounds doesn't help people have fun).

I could get behind using a Free Action to activate the Trinket. This would be no worse than using a polymorph potion with one of the many tokens that allow you to quaff a potion as a free action, and free vs instant makes a lot of difference at high level play but very little difference in Normal play.

I hope it is an instant or free action, with the restriction of no more than one trinket per room unless you have a token like Iktomi's that allows more.

Mike Steele wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: The token is poorly worded. The Instant action refers to the transformation -- which is kinda dumb to even worry about. Here is what the Sea Troll potion says now:

Transforms the character into a Sea Troll. The transformation from human(oid) to Sea Troll, or vice versa, is instantaneous. However, since drinking a potion requires a Standard Action, unless the character can drink this potion as a Free Action, the character may not attack the same round this potion is consumed. The effect lasts until the end of the room or until ended by the player–whichever comes first.

I will fix it on the token.

So what kind of action does it now take to activate a Trinket?

I hope NOT Standard Action, because then we're back to wasting a round of combat which strongly discourages polymorphing as a play style (doing nothing for 1 out a typical 3 rounds doesn't help people have fun).

I could get behind using a Free Action to activate the Trinket. This would be no worse than using a polymorph potion with one of the many tokens that allow you to quaff a potion as a free action, and free vs instant makes a lot of difference at high level play but very little difference in Normal play.

I hope it is an instant or free action, with the restriction of no more than one trinket per room unless you have a token like Iktomi's that allows more.

Jeff said yesterday that the slotless “ Trinket “ works as and instant action allowing the Druid to attack the same round as a normal action. It’s the polymorph potions that require free action to consume.

Perhaps we can add Barbarians to Bead of Bull, so they're not left out something.

Also a reminder to folks that Polymorph changes will get discussed in class redesign, and we were requested to not take over this thread with it.

Jeff Martin wrote: A few tweaks here...and we still have the new Druid poly item -- the Trinket. I know it hard not to do, but let's not comment on HOW the power works for the Trinket. We won't screw over the Ranger or Druid Summoner. The power mechanics will be determined during the class re-design. Please just concentrate on the token images themselves. Thanks for the feedback!

truedungeon.com/files/CS24_Round04_Rare.jpg

Now that the Bracelets of Arcane Sight have been added to the set, maybe add +2 scroll damage to them, so it reads +2 spell and scroll damage?

This would pair nicely with the 4* scroll item in the set, and I think rare wizards are the ones most likely to end up using scrolls, but if someone was really into scrolls (like the bard in my group), they could keep building a scroll build.

Endgame wrote: Now that the Bracelets of Arcane Sight have been added to the set, maybe add +2 scroll damage to them, so it reads +2 spell and scroll damage?

This would pair nicely with the 4* scroll item in the set, and I think rare wizards are the ones most likely to end up using scrolls, but if someone was really into scrolls (like the bard in my group), they could keep building a scroll build.

+1 allows a nice bit of build diversity at UR-

Endgame wrote: Now that the Bracelets of Arcane Sight have been added to the set, maybe add +2 scroll damage to them, so it reads +2 spell and scroll damage?

This would pair nicely with the 4* scroll item in the set, and I think rare wizards are the ones most likely to end up using scrolls, but if someone was really into scrolls (like the bard in my group), they could keep building a scroll build.

+1 on this, the last +scroll dmg token was a Rare in 2022 and that token was wizards only

Endgame wrote: Now that the Bracelets of Arcane Sight have been added to the set, maybe add +2 scroll damage to them, so it reads +2 spell and scroll damage?

This would pair nicely with the 4* scroll item in the set, and I think rare wizards are the ones most likely to end up using scrolls, but if someone was really into scrolls (like the bard in my group), they could keep building a scroll build.

+1 here. Been a while since scroll got some love and adding this helps encourage scroll use and alt build options for the rare to UR- build crowd. Most UR+-Relic folks i'd imagine using a slot expander item so it doesn't push creep there. Maybe upgrade the transmute glasses to c/u/r?

Gloves of the Raider bothers me a bit name wise. It feels very close to Raider's Gloves that came out in 2018. Since this is a effective reprint, why can't we just reprint Gloves of Treasure finding and keep the current art? Treasure finding fits theme wise to me as adventurer's often search for treasure in the desert/tombs.

Impy wrote: Perhaps we can add Barbarians to Bead of Bull, so they're not left out something.

Also a reminder to folks that Polymorph changes will get discussed in class redesign, and we were requested to not take over this thread with it.

Jeff Martin wrote: A few tweaks here...and we still have the new Druid poly item -- the Trinket. I know it hard not to do, but let's not comment on HOW the power works for the Trinket. We won't screw over the Ranger or Druid Summoner. The power mechanics will be determined during the class re-design. Please just concentrate on the token images themselves. Thanks for the feedback!

truedungeon.com/files/CS24_Round04_Rare.jpg

As much as I'd like to not talk about how Polymorph will work, we need to at least know some basics to balance the damage wheel. As presented in the proof, Trollform is overpowered and competitive against a class Legendary.

Or, if we don't want to talk about other Polymorph items at all, let's just compare it against the other weapons in this image alone:
Trinket of Trollform: average damage 9.33
+1 Heavy Axe: average damage 6.5
+1 Oasis Bow: average damage 5.5
+1 Mystic Staff of the Serpent: average damage 5.5
+1 Sword of Seth: average damage 5.375
+1 Spear of Seth: average damage 4.5
Rod of Ra: average damage 4.5
Moon Dagger: average damage 3.5

Why is Trollform that much higher? You can argue it's because it can only be used in one combat per dungeon, but if this is the base power level of all Rare trinkets going forwards, what happens in a few years when we have enough unique trinkets for each combat of a dungeon? Are Druid intended to deal more combat damage than other classes?