TOPIC: Feedback Needed on Rules Changes for 2025 Combat/Classes

Regarding point #6

Jeff Martin wrote:
6) Monks gain a bonus to AC as Clerics do with Wisdom (we may have to tweak their starting AC).
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I take this to mean both Clerics and Monks will get an AC bonus based on Wisdom?

Will this mean these classes don’t benefit from DEX based AC bonuses?

Or they will get the better of DEX or CON? Or combined benefits from both?

I don’t see the benefit of this change - other than to create demand for WIS boosting tokens (which is OK - I just don’t see why players at large would want this).

Without additional rules changes, this is going to lead to clerics having higher AC than STR / melee based fighters and paladins in the same gear in a lot of cases.

1) Dexterity will now be treated like Strength is for both to hit and damage with MISSILE attacks (not Ranged). Thus, a DEX of 18 will give the archer +4 to hit and +4 to damage.

I really like this and think it would be a great move, though I am a ranged rogue primarily so I'm very biased.

2) Wisdom will also do this exact same + to hit / + to damage for Clerics and Druids who need to slide a hit to do damage. This will not change the amount of Healing they do.

3) Intelligence will be the same for Wizards as Wisdom is for Clerics/Druids -- bonus to hit and damage.

While I agree with the basic premise that full casters should be using their spellcasting ability score more, it sounds almost like they would be using it if they were to smack someone with a mace. I'm not certain if that is the intention or not, but if so it seems odd. That being said, more weapons like the mystic staves, which let casters use their casting modifier for regular sliding, would be great in a scenario where casters don't end up getting some sort of repeatable cantrip not tied to a finite number of slots.

5) Charisma will do the same to hit/damage bonus for Bards with to hit spells, and we will set up bonus damage for Bardsong based on certain levels of Charisma. However, these won't be based on the other standard bonuses for Attributes like Strength. It will be more like +1 to damage at a Charisma of 18, +2 for a Charisma of 22, etc.

Yuck. I love the idea of bards getting stuff scaling with their casting ability score, I strongly dislike the idea of the ability score bonus calculations functioning differently than all other ability scores for all other classes. I really think they should both get to add CHA to their hit/damage on spells and also have it be the same standard as all other classes.

6) Monks gain a bonus to AC as Clerics do with Wisdom (we may have to tweak their starting AC).

As far as monks go, if you just changed their Combat Prowess ability to say: "adds WIS modifier to AC (in addition to DEX)" you might be all set. As far as clerics also adding WIS to AC, I don't strongly feel like that is necessary. Traditionally, monks have this ability to make up for their inability to wear most kinds of armor, while clerics are a heavy armor class and don't need additional bolstering to their AC (since they can be running around in legendary plate armor if they feel so inclined).

7) Paladins gain additional healing pts, on their first use of Lay on Hand, equal to their Wisdom bonus

Paladin is traditionally a CHA-based class. I would suggest keeping it here, with Lay on Hands scaling based on their CHA bonus. Also, they have really high base saves largely as a result of having the 3.5 Divine Grace ability built in but unwritten (bonus to all saves based on CHA bonus). It might be nice if they had that ability written out, so their CHA bonus also boosts their saves in addition to their Lay on Hands.

Also re #4: Will the spell to-hit AC be the current AC15 or monster regular AC? If the latter, anyone wanting to play Elf at NM+ under the new rules will have to drop multiple Focus or other tokens to get a decent to-hit % (the new INT to-hit bonus will not fill the gap between hitting AC15 and what you need to reliably hit monster AC at NM+).

Regarding #1
How would Acherin’s Biting Bow work with the rule change? Would they get double dex bonus up to the first +10 to damage?

tokendb.com/token/acherins-biting-bow/

Regarding point #4:

Jeff Martin wrote: 4) The Elf Wizard will be turned into a spellcaster that 80-90% of the time needs to slide to hit to do damage -- but when it does it the target it will delivery more average damage than the Wizard. The normal Wizard will have none or very little slide spells. This will give the classes a more distinct and interesting flavor. Focus will continue to work normally for everyone.

I would be careful to look at how the new ability scales with spell damage bonuses from which can be expected to range anywhere from 0-100 points of spell damage in the near future (if we're not at 100 already with the 2025 tokens...).

Consider these hypothetical level 1 spells for redesigned Elf Wizard and Wizard:

* Elf Wizard - Force Bolt: Slide AC-15 to hit; 12 pts force damage
* Wizard - Magic Missile: 8 pts force damage

At first glance this may seem reasonable, Elf Wizards get 50% more damage for the risk of a slide.

However, consider a very obtainable high end spell damage bonus of +50, then we have:

* Elf Wizard - Force Bolt: 62 pts force damage
* Wizard - Magic Missile: 58 pts force damage

Now the Wizard is unambiguously much, much better than the Elf Wizard, as

* Elf Wizard would need to hit on more than 93% of their slides to deal more damage than Wizard
* Elf Wizard's ceiling of damage assuming they always hit is only ~7% more than the Wizard

Regarding point #4:

Jeff Martin wrote: 4) The Elf Wizard will be turned into a spellcaster that 80-90% of the time needs to slide to hit to do damage -- but when it does it the target it will delivery more average damage than the Wizard. The normal Wizard will have none or very little slide spells. This will give the classes a more distinct and interesting flavor. Focus will continue to work normally for everyone.

This seems troublesome given the Mage Power of Quicken, which is all about casting 2 spells per round once per room in the dungeon. Having to frequently manage two attack slides with one puck is going to be troublesome.

Similarly, the Mage Power of Sharpen seems like it will be bothersome as well, as the ability to crit on slid spells should maybe be baked into the Elf Wizard class, or available on UR or even Rare tokens.

Regarding none of the points above - Rogue Edition:

Consider changing how Sneak Attack works so that either:
* There is no one round downtime,
* Or, the downtime round of a Sneak Attack gives the rogue something fun to do
Skipping a round isn't fun

Regarding none of the points above - Armor Class:

Consider bringing in limitations on the amount of DEX that can be applied to your armor class as a bonus.

In the early years of TD DEX boosters were extremely limited - the flood gates didn't open on DEX until 2014, which have distorted the difference between the AC obtainable by different classes due to commonly available usable by all DEX.

For inspiration, recent editions D&D limits DEX bonuses applied with torso armor roughly like:
* No armor or light armor allows DEX bonus to AC the same as TD
* Medium armor caps the DEX bonus to AC at +2
* Heavy armor allows no DEX bonus to AC

To bring this sort idea into TD, perhaps some type of max AC bonus from DEX could be applied across the board. I would set the limit on the AC bonus due to DEX at +10.

This would allow the heavy armor classes to have meaningfully higher AC than other classes, especially as DEX boosters continue to proliferate and DEX becomes more valuable to some classes as boosting missile damage.

Regarding #1:
Currently, STR grants Melee damage and Melee to-hit. DEX grants Ranged to-hit, AC, and Reflexes saves.

Melee combat has the disadvantage of taking Retribution Damage (and other close-combat aurae that are definitely not Retribution damage). Additionally, some enemies may be inaccessible to Melee, forcing players into Ranged combat.

If DEX also starts granting Missile damage, is there a compelling reason why players should take up Melee instead of Missile?
I guess Raging Barbarian, Polymorphing Druids, Dwarf/Fighters doing Double Strike might prefer it.
At lower power, I gues Monks without Benrow's and Rogues without Ranged Sneak Attack too.

Regarding #1 (again):
I see the response on Thrown weapons is that they will no longer grant damage from STR, but be purely off of DEX. How are STR focused martial classes supposed to contribute meaningfully to combat at forced Ranged? Is there a compelling reason why players should not do a full DEX build?

Regarding #1 (once more):
How will this impact Mighty weapons? Will they get both DEX and STR bonuses?
How will this impact Acherin's Biting Bow? Will it gain DEX (capped at 10) + DEX (uncapped)?

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Regarding #2:
Does the WIS bonus to damage apply to Mystic Staves wielded by a Cleric/Druid?

Regarding #3:
Does the INT bonus to damage apply to Mystic Staves wielded by a Elf/Wizard?

Regarding #5:
If other classes get a damage bonus for Mystic Staves based on the sliding stat, will Bards get such a bonus too? Which stat would it use?

Regarding #6:
If other classes get a damage bonus for Mystic Staves based on the sliding stat, will Monks get such a bonus from WIS too?

Regarding #6 (again):
Are you saying that both Monks and Cleric will gain AC based on WIS? Or are you saying only Monks will gain AC based on the standard stat modifying calculation from WIS? Will Monks (+Cleric?) still gain AC from DEX?

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Regarding #4:
Will Elves retain Alertness (as a scroll!)?

Regarding #4 (again):
I don't play either Wizard, but I feel that (non-Elf) Wizards should retain at least one slide spell to take advantage of effects such as Mage Power: Sharpen and Ring of Wizardry. But again, that's from a non-Wizard.

Regarding #8:
How many times would a Druid be able to innately Polymorph without Trinkets?

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Regarding #4 + #8: Focus
Is there concern that Druids -- a jack-of-all-trades -- benefits from Focus in three ways simultaneously, while other classes only benefit in one or two ways?

For Clerics to participate in dealing damage (and therefore ending the combat), they need to give up Focus in exchange for Melee damage. They have a few Damage Spells that would be supported by Focus, but not sufficient casts to last more than one combat. They also have Turn Undead, but not every enemy can be Turned.
In comparison, Druids can apply their entire Focus to Polymorph damage for by activating Polymorph, whether by Potion, Trinket, Iktomi's, or class card, while still retaining their Healing and Spellcasting bonuses.

Elf/Wizards deal amazing damage via Spells, but if forced to abandon this mode of combat, don't have a very good to-hit rate. They can Polymorph to apply Focus to Melee damage, but are unlikely to hit.
In comparison, a Polymorphing Druid, if forced out of Melee, can apply the full Focus to their auto-hitting Spells -- while still retaining healing utility. Unless cut to fewer than four, it's unlikely they will run out of Damage Spells before the combat is over.

If Druids are meant to be a jack-of-all-trades, can Clerics and Elf/Wizards have Focus applied at a higher rate to their specialties -- Healing and Damage Spells, respectively?

As always, I really appreciate TDA's willingness to listen to community feedback for their game. I'm on board with the rule changes in a broad sense.

Feedback for individual changes:
Point 1 - Archer builds at all levels of play already use dexterity with ranged/missile bonuses available to achieve high hit chance and damage, while also enjoying higher AC and reflex saves. If this rule would go into play, I think they would completely outclass some of the strength based classes, namely the fighters and paladin. Those classes would need to be addressed individually to keep up with the extra power the other classes may get.

Point 2 - Would wisdom override str/dex for weapon attacks? I wouldn't agree with that change. Using wisdom for spells and powers sounds great, however.

Point 4 - Although I think the style change is fun and interesting, elf wizards at higher levels of play may struggle to hit their slides until they can gather enough INT tokens to meet the monster AC. There would surely be some that will be upset that they have to grab new tokens to keep up.

Point 6 - Clerics already have access to the best AC armor which I believe should be enough. I understand monks getting a dex + wisdom bonus to AC based on D&D, but without other reasons to use wisdom it may not be impactful aside from a different way to calculate starting AC

Point 7 - Should paladins use charisma for their powers for their primary stat? I also think this one may be difficult to explain in practice. would it be too powerful to simply allow them a bonus to their lay on hands pool?

Point 8 - Similar to point 4, we have many polymorph druids who have invested heavily into strength that would be upset that their stats have changed so drastically. Ideally I would like to be able to choose between strength or wisdom bonuses, but between coaches and app development I imagine that could be troublesome to implement.

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I think you're missing the biggest change needed. The Ranger and Monk need to be limited to bonus damage only being applied to one attack per turn, instead of potentially two. Allowing them to apply their bonus melee damage to both attacks is the most unbalancing thing in the game currently.

I would have vigorously agreed at some point, but this situation has been going on so long that now other classes have ways to also double-dip into their damage bonus on a round:

* Wizards get Quicken Mage power allowing 2x damage bonuses once per room
* Druids and Clerics get Ring of Quick Blessing which allows 2x damage bonuses
* Wizards, Druids, and Clerics all get 1/game X of Spell Storing effects, and it looks like will be getting access to it 1/room from Cabal set before too much longer
* Fighters get Double Strike (which is maybe 1 room per dungeon-ish) via their legendary
* Barbarians get Fury 1 or 2 per game
* Rogues get 3x crits on 17-20 2/room with the right tokens in ranged builds, soon to be expanded to 3x crits on 19-20 2/room with the right tokens in melee builds

To sum up: I think the real problem of melee Rangers and melee/thrown Monks having access to their damage bonus 2x per round every round has metastasized to other classes, and is now a generic problem across several classes.

"Fixing" rangers and monks now by simply taking away their damage bonus on the second puck might leave them too far behind all the classes above at this point.

I can't think of an elegant solution here - other than perhaps a pretty widespread rooting out of double damage dealing game wide:

* Ranger and Monk Class Rule - damage bonus applies only to highest hit number slid

* Anything that allows casting a spell that gets a damage modifier as a free or instant action can't be used to cast a damage spell
(e.g. RIng of Quick Blessing, Cleric Relic / Legendary, Cabal Set, Quicken Mage Power, X of Spell Storing, ...)

* Overall crit rule - Only slid 20's can triple crit, regardless of crit range of the attack

I think it's OK to leave Barbarian Fury and Rogue Sneak Attack Crit on 17+ alone in this regime given that they are less frequent than 1/room and/or require a hard slide.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Jeff, I think you're missing the biggest change needed. The Ranger and Monk need to be limited to bonus damage only being applied to one attack per turn, instead of potentially two. Allowing them to apply their bonus melee damage to both attacks is the most unbalancing thing in the game currently.

I would have vigorously agreed at some point, but this situation has been going on so long that now other classes have ways to also double-dip into their damage bonus on a round:

* Wizards get Quicken Mage power allowing 2x damage bonuses once per room
* Druids and Clerics get Ring of Quick Blessing which allows 2x damage bonuses
* Wizards, Druids, and Clerics all get 1/game X of Spell Storing effects, and it looks like will be getting access to it 1/room from Cabal set before too much longer
* Fighters get Double Strike (which is maybe 1 room per dungeon-ish) via their legendary
* Barbarians get Fury 1 or 2 per game
* Rogues get 3x crits on 17-20 2/room with the right tokens in ranged builds, soon to be expanded to 3x crits on 19-20 2/room with the right tokens in melee builds

To sum up: I think the real problem of melee Rangers and melee/thrown Monks having access to their damage bonus 2x per round every round has metastasized to other classes, and is now a generic problem across several classes.

"Fixing" rangers and monks now by simply taking away their damage bonus on the second puck might leave them too far behind all the classes above at this point.

I can't think of an elegant solution here - other than perhaps a pretty widespread rooting out of double damage dealing game wide:

* Ranger and Monk Class Rule - damage bonus applies only to highest hit number slid

* Anything that allows casting a spell that gets a damage modifier as a free or instant action can't be used to cast a damage spell
(e.g. RIng of Quick Blessing, Cleric Relic / Legendary, Cabal Set, Quicken Mage Power, X of Spell Storing, ...)

* Overall crit rule - Only slid 20's can triple crit, regardless of crit range of the attack

I think it's OK to leave Barbarian Fury and Rogue Sneak Attack Crit on 17+ alone in this regime given that they are less frequent than 1/room and/or require a hard slide.

Put a rule in place that only one damage bonus can be applied per character per turn. If a Monk or Ranger hit twice, only one hit gets a damage bonus. If a Druid hits in melee and with a spell, only one gets a damage bonus. If an attack or spell hits multiple targets, the damage bonus is a pool spread over the targets instead of applied in full to each. If two damage spells are cast in a turn, only one gets a damage bonus. Etc, etc.