TOPIC: 2025 Ultra Rare Tokens

Overall looks good in terms of common errors.

Token feedback:

Amulet of the Folkvangr: Lol - people complained that +3 STR/+4 DEX was too good and obsoleted Stu-Pendous Pendant so it got even better! Please don't print URs that are strictly better than other URs in the same slot for uni-slots. This clobbers secondary market values and isn't necessary when there are so many other dials to turn.

Belt of the Hunter: Not much discussion around this token other than occasional comparisons to Belt of the Deadshot. I like it and hope this stays as is.

Charm of Echoed Taunts: Can now taunt 3 times in one room with a single charm - probably enough to taunt the boss in most combats. Is TD OK with boss monsters ~always being under the taunt effect at an investment of 1 UR charm?

Nightshade's Grim Gloves: I would reorder the words as "on a Melee Sneak Attack Critical" and maybe add the word 'hit' for "on a Melee Sneak Attack Critical hit"

Picc's Grindstone: No thank you - slotless tokens that unconditionally improve every build don't seem fun to me. If they have to exist, make them patron run rewards, treasure only, treasure box transmutes, etc..

Thor's Mug of Melee
This item is fine the way it is. If we are going to nerf this item which has less over all attributes than the DK Shield than we really need to nerf the Death Knight Helm.

There seems to be a subset of folks that are perfectly happy to stretch the budget in a slot for DK items, but not for any other items in the same slot. I am okay with some power creep, but we need to be consistent or DK becomes a weird relic level set that was released at the UR level.

Tangental thought: I think we can do better than balance human fighter on gear selection when we get to the class cards here later this year. Let's leave some space for giving them a cool class ability and move away from the crutch of making items fighter only.

OrionW wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee
This item is fine the way it is. If we are going to nerf this item which has less over all attributes than the DK Shield than we really need to nerf the Death Knight Helm.

We should be seeing Martial Classes build up a measurable, non trivial edge through their gear, otherwise why play a Fighter over Rogue, Monk, Druid or Ranger? As it stands, nearly every build that focuses on damage already uses either Brawler's mug or Brawler's horn, and all this mug does is exasperate that problem.

I suspect that the real complaint here is that marshal classes would have an edge over druid in the melee offhand slot, if this mug is not +4 damage.

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Thor's Mug of Melee
This item is fine the way it is. If we are going to nerf this item which has less over all attributes than the DK Shield than we really need to nerf the Death Knight Helm.

There seems to be a subset of folks that are perfectly happy to stretch the budget in a slot for DK items, but not for any other items in the same slot. I am okay with some power creep, but we need to be consistent or DK becomes a weird relic level set that was released at the UR level.

Tangental thought: I think we can do better than balance human fighter on gear selection when we get to the class cards here later this year. Let's leave some space for giving them a cool class ability and move away from the crutch of making items fighter only.

We should be seeing Martial Classes build up a measurable, non trivial edge through their gear, otherwise why play a Fighter over Rogue, Monk, Druid or Ranger? As it stands, nearly every build that focuses on damage already uses either Brawler's mug or Brawler's horn, and all this mug does is exasperate that problem.

I suspect that the real complaint here is that marshal classes would have an edge over druid in the melee offhand slot, if this mug is not +4 damage.

Nice dodge on not addressing that the Death Knight Helm is at Relic level.

Lets just be consistent here, if we can't have the Mug of Melee even though it is measurably less powerful than the DK shield, doubling down on more DK items is a mistake; otherwise, lets move forward and accept that the off hand slot has bumped up a little in power level - just like the helm slot will have after this year.

Edit: also fixed where Endgame quoted me to remove his selective quote and include my entire post for context.

Mike Steele wrote:

David Harris wrote: Shield of Guarding

Do you think the word first could be removed from the token. This way the Paladin could choose when to activate the ability once per game, rather than just negating the first hit they take?

I actually like the "first" requirement, it reigns in the power a bit on an overpowered token for the Paladin.

I don't know, doesn't seem that powerful, If it negates the first hit that's probably a small one. If the Paladin can choose, then perhaps it negates a big hit from the boss in room 7. Maybe that is too powerful. But considering you would have to break up a set to equip this shield, I'm definitely not breaking up the Redoubt, Templar or probably even the Defender set for the first hit negate. The choose a hit version, probably still no...but it's a consideration.

Amulet of Folkvangr:
Strictly better than the 2014 honorarily named UR Stu-pendous Pendant .

Earcuff of the Cabal:
Looks like Monk got added to the Cabal, when they weren't previously on any such items. I presume it's intentional, but do they need to be included? Not every class gets access to tokens that they can make use of; e.g., Rangers don't get access to most Focus items even though they could benefit from improved healing.

Marc D wrote: But, I could see someone trying to make the argument though that it would let a Wizard wield a Staff of Focus + any shield in the game because the specific token rule (may equip a shield while wielding a 2-hand weapon) overrides the general class-restriction rule (The bottom of the token indicates who can use it).

It's consistent with other slot expanders -- none explicitly say they allow for class restrictions on tokens to be broken, so it's implied they must still be followed.

David Zych wrote: Shield of Guarding: would this be clearer as "may negate first melee hit you take while Guarding"?

With sufficient DR (including the 3 DR from Guard), the first hit may be for no damage. Would this impact the value of this effect?

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

David Zych wrote: Shield of Guarding: would this be clearer as "may negate first melee hit you take while Guarding"?

With sufficient DR (including the 3 DR from Guard), the first hit may be for no damage. Would this impact the value of this effect?

That's a really good point! Forget I said anything.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

Marc D wrote: But, I could see someone trying to make the argument though that it would let a Wizard wield a Staff of Focus + any shield in the game because the specific token rule (may equip a shield while wielding a 2-hand weapon) overrides the general class-restriction rule (The bottom of the token indicates who can use it).

It's consistent with other slot expanders -- none explicitly say they allow for class restrictions on tokens to be broken, so it's implied they must still be followed.

Just to preface this: I'm being intentionally obtuse here because I want to make sure this is clarified in Token DB.

The shield maiden bracers aren't a slot expander, because "shield" is not a slot. "Offhand" is the slot, and "shield" is a type of item that often occupies that slot.

By the most "I'm a power gamer and I'm going to exploit any rules I can" reading, the bracers right now allow you to use a shield if you wield a 2-handed weapon. That could be taken to override the class restrictions if you take "may" to be a very broad sort of permission.

Does this mean we are going to get cabal set reprints?

Somewhere in these threads Jeff mentioned he was going to make more Cabal items in the future.

DK helm being better for 4 or 5 classes is not close to Thors mug being better for.most or all.

Please make Thors +3, everyone will still get it.

I love more Viper strike

Edit: please reprint stu's