TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens Heading to the Far East

OrionW wrote: What you are discussing is slotting two items as a barbarian at the same time (violating the hands rule). That is not at all what I am saying. The question is can you hold a staff in one hand when casting the same way you hold a 2 handed ranged weapon when loading it. The rules for casting are (as you pointed out):

Casting a Spell or scroll requires the caster to perform gestures with their hands. A shield may be actively used in the off-hand, but the caster’s mainhand must be free.

It does not say that they need to be unslotted and even talks about holding a shield actively in one hand. I don't see why you couldn't hold the staff cast and then hold it with two hands again. The free action is specifically for switching a different item into a slot.

p.42 of the PBH:

Swapping a slotted item (except between two heavy crossbows, see Unusual Timing Rules)

Nothing is being swapped, nor is it required. I don't see anywhere that it says you need to have your melee equipment equipped to cast a spell.

A Mystic Staff is a two-handed weapon, and as such, requires two free hands to use (i.e., to attack with it). No rule innately allows for a two-handed weapon to be used with just one hand.

Two-handed weapons do not require a free hand to be loaded.

Your response continues to dodge the question on how DSN has any innate synergy with Mystic Staves, or why Clerics are the best users of Mystic Staves.

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Your response continues to dodge the question on how DSN has any innate synergy with Mystic Staves, or why Clerics are the best users of Mystic Staves.

I think we just have a different opinion about what the rules say. I don't see anything that says you need to swap to your melee build or that you need to hold the mystic staff with two hands at all times, so it looks to me that you can:
1) let go of the mystic staff with one hand
2) cast a spell as a free action using DSN
3) grab the staff with the other hand
4) attack with the staff as a standard action

The synergy from DSN is that you can cast and attack in the same round. You don't get a bonus from what ever you would have had in your main hand in your melee build, but that seems like it could be worth it.

OrionW wrote:
I think we just have a different opinion about what the rules say. I don't see anything that says you need to swap to your melee build or that you need to hold the mystic staff with two hands at all times, so it looks to me that you can:
1) let go of the mystic staff with one hand
2) cast a spell as a free action using DSN
3) grab the staff with the other hand
4) attack with the staff as a standard action

The rules for holding things in your hands and using magic are a mess, but I don't think this works.

Can you point to any rules reference for step #1 and step #3? I don't think anything like:

"loosing a grip with your main or offhand on a two handed weapon as an instant action"

and

"re-establishing a grip with your main or offhand on a two handed weapon as an instant action"

Are rules concepts in TD at all.

I don't think TD has a concept of being able to grip a two handed item with only one hand, and if it did I don't think it has rules specifying loosing and regaining a one hand is an instant action.

When it comes claiming "I can do X thing in True Dungeon" you need to be able to point to some rules that lets you take that action X, as opposed to not being able to find a rule that says you can't do X.

The rules don't contain an exhaustive list of everything you can't do; so even if there is no rule saying "you can't do X," it doesn't follow that you can do X.

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The Player's Handbook says on page 35:

"Casting a Spell or scroll requires the caster to perform gestures with their hands. A shield may be actively used in the off-hand, but the caster’s mainhand must be free. The only exception to this is a Focus weapon. The enchantment on a Focus weapon allows the wielder to cast a Spell (not a scroll) while the weapon is being held...."

E.g. casting a spell or scroll requires either two free hands or a free hand and a sheild.

TokenDB entries that speak about free hands and spells say things like:

"Under most circumstances, either two free hands or a shield and one free hand are required to cast a Spell."

See for example: tokendb.com/token/2-staff-of-power/ , tokendb.com/token/2-baton-of-focus/ ,

So "gripping a Mystic Staff in one hand,” even it it’s possible, is not enough to cast a spell - you need either two free hands, or one free hand and a shield.

OrionW wrote:

Ho-Yi Fung wrote: Your response continues to dodge the question on how DSN has any innate synergy with Mystic Staves, or why Clerics are the best users of Mystic Staves.

I think we just have a different opinion about what the rules say. I don't see anything that says you need to swap to your melee build or that you need to hold the mystic staff with two hands at all times, so it looks to me that you can:
1) let go of the mystic staff with one hand
2) cast a spell as a free action using DSN
3) grab the staff with the other hand
4) attack with the staff as a standard action

The synergy from DSN is that you can cast and attack in the same round. You don't get a bonus from what ever you would have had in your main hand in your melee build, but that seems like it could be worth it.

I believe your interpretation of that rule is incorrect, because otherwise, under your interpretation, you could:
1) let go of [weapon] with one hand
2) cast a Spell, as a Standard Action
3) grab [weapon] with the other hand
4) have your Free Action to do whatever you want with it.
And if that interpretation is correct, why is there an exception carved out specifically for Focus weapons to allow you to cast Spells while holding one, when you could effectively do this with any held implement?

You do not need to swap to a melee build, but you do need either your main hand free, or an appropriate focus through which to channel magic. DSN is one such focus. Without contorting around rules, you can already:
1) Attack with a Mystic Staff as a Standard Action; and
2) channel (cast) a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell through DSN as a Free Action.

However, this combo you present is not unique to Mystic Staves. You can also:
1) Attack with a Rod of Ra as a Standard Action; and
2) channel (cast) a 1st-level or 2nd-level spell through DSN as a Free Action.

It's also not unique to Clerics. Wizards with Ashenne's can:
1) Attack with a Mystic Staff of the Sun as a Standard Action; and
2) channel (cast) a Quickened spell through AAM as an Instant Action.

DSN provides no synergy for Mystic Staves that other weapons don't also benefit from. Wizards and Elves remain better suited to take advantage better gear and base stats, and can also both slide and cast.

True a wizard/elf wizard can use a mystic staff and cast a quickened spell with Ashenne’s, but they may have a better use for the standard action of a better use of Asgenne’s that round, and there is slightly less int based options to stack for +hit (wisdom is much easier).

This doesn’t take away from the synergy from DSN and Mystic Wands though. Clerics can cast 1st and 2nd level spells as a free action (either with my overly complicated interpretation of the rules (which could be incorrect) or just using DSN as a focus which I clearly at some point in this thread overlooked) and still slide the mystic staff.

How about a different approach to a potential solution.

Leave the damage wheel on the trinket as-is.

But require Druids to spend a Standard Action to activate their trinket 1/room. Note: Polymorphing itself would still be instantaneous. But the act of activating the magic of the trinket would not be. Also note, this is just 1/room. You can then polymorph at will back and forth.

Someone with Iktomi's would activate the magic of the trinket as an Instant Action.

And just to make there be more difference between Iktomi's and the Relic neck, have the Relic reduce the activation magic to a Free Action.

Fiddy wrote: How about a different approach to a potential solution.

Leave the damage wheel on the trinket as-is.

But require Druids to spend a Standard Action to activate their trinket 1/room. Note: Polymorphing itself would still be instantaneous. But the act of activating the magic of the trinket would not be. Also note, this is just 1/room. You can then polymorph at will back and forth.

Someone with Iktomi's would activate the magic of the trinket as an Instant Action.

And just to make there be more difference between Iktomi's and the Relic neck, have the Relic reduce the activation magic to a Free Action.

It doesn't seem like nerfing polymorph for all Druids that don't have the OOP Class Tokens (which is the vast majority of them) is a good solution to anything. Sacrificing the first round of every combat is a huge penalty. And it's true of course that drinking a polymorph potion took a turn, but there are a bunch of easily obtainable tokens that allow drinking potions as a free action.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote: How about a different approach to a potential solution.

Leave the damage wheel on the trinket as-is.

But require Druids to spend a Standard Action to activate their trinket 1/room. Note: Polymorphing itself would still be instantaneous. But the act of activating the magic of the trinket would not be. Also note, this is just 1/room. You can then polymorph at will back and forth.

Someone with Iktomi's would activate the magic of the trinket as an Instant Action.

And just to make there be more difference between Iktomi's and the Relic neck, have the Relic reduce the activation magic to a Free Action.

It doesn't seem like nerfing polymorph for all Druids that don't have the OOP Class Tokens (which is the vast majority of them) is a good solution to anything. Sacrificing the first round of every combat is a huge penalty. And it's true of course that drinking a polymorph potion took a turn, but there are a bunch of easily obtainable tokens that allow drinking potions as a free action.

So, have those tokens work with trinkets, too.
I mean, the whole point of switching to trinkets was to have polymorph potions that don't get turned in, correct? So, why not have them function exactly so?

Fiddy wrote: How about a different approach to a potential solution.

Leave the damage wheel on the trinket as-is.

But require Druids to spend a Standard Action to activate their trinket 1/room. Note: Polymorphing itself would still be instantaneous. But the act of activating the magic of the trinket would not be. Also note, this is just 1/room. You can then polymorph at will back and forth.

Someone with Iktomi's would activate the magic of the trinket as an Instant Action.

And just to make there be more difference between Iktomi's and the Relic neck, have the Relic reduce the activation magic to a Free Action.

+1 to this. This also allows us to simply make tokens that allow polymorph as a free action like the tokens we have for rogue that allows sneak attack without 1 round delay

A different idea
Have polymorph use a spell slotb depending on the trinket rarity

C - 0th level
UC - 1st level
R - 2nd level
UR+ - 3rd level

This will allow us to make a druid only polymorph tokens that are effectively a modified charm of spell storing.

One example:
Charm of Potent Polymorph: +1 Polymorph hit and may polymorph without marking a spell slot 1/game

Impy wrote: A different idea
Have polymorph use a spell slotb depending on the trinket rarity

C - 0th level
UC - 1st level
R - 2nd level
UR+ - 3rd level

This will allow us to make a druid only polymorph tokens that are effectively a modified charm of spell storing.

One example:
Charm of Potent Polymorph: +1 Polymorph hit and may polymorph without marking a spell slot 1/game

If we were to go this direction, which to be clear I don't think we should, then Trinkets should be unlimited use similar to Shaman's Belt or Coronet of the Arch-Druid

I am all for sacrificing spell slots for things like jump (hit at range), critical hitting creatures that are normally immune, retribution damage, DR, etc. Spending spell slots should be for making polymorph more interesting, not just for powering what Jeff has indicated will be the basic class feature during the redesign. If druid's can no longer heal the party because they spent their resources on spells for polymorph augmentation I think that is okay. At the end of the day healing is a way for the rest of the group not to spend tokens (healing consumables, consumables that restore dead characters to life, etc.), and it might help token sales if you needed a stack of consumables to play nightmare or higher.

Clerics, Druids, Bards, and Paladins shouldn't just be about support.

I'm not sure we're still in the design process. It sounds like these designs are locked in and already sent out for manufacturing.