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TOPIC: 2025 Rare Tokens to Printer

2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 1 day ago #13

Mike Steele wrote: Calculating an "effective" damage wheel for Druids seems pretty meaningless when you aren't doing the same for other classes. Other classes have tokens and abilities that increase damage should result in an increased "effective damage wheel" for those classes as well, using your logic.

I'm happy to include any other class that has a slotless weapon that is slid instead of the equipped melee mainhand, but also modified by the weapon equipped in melee mainhand. To get me started, can you give me a list of classes and tokens to include?

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Last edit: by Endgame.

2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 1 day ago #14

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Calculating an "effective" damage wheel for Druids seems pretty meaningless when you aren't doing the same for other classes. Other classes have tokens and abilities that increase damage should result in an increased "effective damage wheel" for those classes as well, using your logic.

I'm happy to include any other class that has a slotless weapon that is slid instead of the equipped melee mainhand, but also modified by the weapon equipped in melee mainhand. To get me started, can you give me a list of classes and tokens to include?


Ranger legendary animal companion can use a trinket for the animal companion with no other bonus on damage.

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 1 day ago #15

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Calculating an "effective" damage wheel for Druids seems pretty meaningless when you aren't doing the same for other classes. Other classes have tokens and abilities that increase damage should result in an increased "effective damage wheel" for those classes as well, using your logic.

I'm happy to include any other class that has a slotless weapon that is slid instead of the equipped melee mainhand, but also modified by the weapon equipped in melee mainhand. To get me started, can you give me a list of classes and tokens to include?


Great question.

I get Mike likes Druid but his arguments really aren't holding up that well here. Trinkets are broken big time. Don't print anymore. Poly potions were fine. Create some cool new Poly's.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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Last edit: by Rob F.

2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 1 day ago #16

OrionW wrote: Collecting trinkets should be measurable better than collecting mystic staves that do damage at range.


Reacting to this point specifically. I did Some very quick and dirty work in character builders using only Rare tokens (same rarity as trinkets and most mystic staves to date).

A mystic staff Druid can get about +9 to hit/+11 damage with the +1 Mystic Staff, with around +10-12 spell damage 2 bonus points of healing.

A polymorph Druid can get around +11 to hit/+29 damage, with +4 spell damage/healing.

So, I think there's a pretty significant advantage to the polymorph Druid dealing over double the bonus damage of the mystic staff Druid.

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 1 day ago #17

Rob F wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Calculating an "effective" damage wheel for Druids seems pretty meaningless when you aren't doing the same for other classes. Other classes have tokens and abilities that increase damage should result in an increased "effective damage wheel" for those classes as well, using your logic.

I'm happy to include any other class that has a slotless weapon that is slid instead of the equipped melee mainhand, but also modified by the weapon equipped in melee mainhand. To get me started, can you give me a list of classes and tokens to include?


Great question.

I get Mike likes Druid but his arguments really aren't holding up that well here. Trinkets are broken big time. Don't print anymore. Poly potions were fine. Create some cool new Poly's.


That is not a great question. It is narrowly defining how a Trinket works, and then asks for other examples of a Trinket-like token, which of course there aren't any that I'm aware of (unless you count polymorph tokens). There are plenty of other abilities or tokens that add to damage. But like I said, since TD locked down the design of this token after making major negative changes to it, there is no point in debating it now. Feel free to continue your debate, but I'm dropping out of it.

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 22 hours ago #18

Everybody seems to be missing the most relevant point that makes trinkets suck; this line from tokendb on the trinket of trollform page:
"You may not use more than one trinket per adventure–even if they have different names."
Trinkets replacing polymorph potions absolutely ruin the entire polymorph build for any new players. Trinkets are just another option for us old players with iktomis.
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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 21 hours ago #19

kurtreznor wrote: Everybody seems to be missing the most relevant point that makes trinkets suck; this line from tokendb on the trinket of trollform page:
"You may not use more than one trinket per adventure–even if they have different names."
Trinkets replacing polymorph potions absolutely ruin the entire polymorph build for any new players. Trinkets are just another option for us old players with iktomis.

Note, that quote conflicts with the most recent entry in the 2025 FAQ thread. Presumably the new FAQ overrides the current entry in tokendb

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 21 hours ago #20

kurtreznor wrote: Everybody seems to be missing the most relevant point that makes trinkets suck; this line from tokendb on the trinket of trollform page:
"You may not use more than one trinket per adventure–even if they have different names."
Trinkets replacing polymorph potions absolutely ruin the entire polymorph build for any new players. Trinkets are just another option for us old players with iktomis.

Looks like tokendb hasn't been updated yet after the recent ruling which introduced that statement was overturned . Discussions are assuming the new ruling in the FAQ will stand. At time of writing, the ruling reads:

Druegar wrote: Trinket Use
There is no limit on the number of trinkets you can bring into the dungeon with you nor with the number of times you can use a trinket per room. However, the one monster form per room rule is still in effect. You can go into and out of one particular form within any given room as many times as you like--assuming you have the resources to effect each change. E.g., if you have both Trinket of Trollform and Trinket of Bearform, you could hypothetically cycle between Troll form and your normal humanoid form dozens of times, but you could not cycle back and forth between Troll and Bear within a single room.

Cleric main / Druid secondary

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 21 hours ago #21

OrionW wrote: These rare items fill the gap up that other classes utilize cheap UR weapons for.

I don't know how to respond without sounding snarky, but... you are aware that a Druid can equip traditional UR weapons too, yes?
And if Rare Trinkets act like "cheap UR weapons", then what design space remains for UR Trinkets, that doesn't completely break the power level of URs?

OrionW wrote: If you are going to collect 5-7 of these so you can play a combat heavy VTD each one should be worth more than an average of 7 damage.

I collected 5-7 copies of +1 Nether Short Spear just so I could participate in combat, back when my primary build was Thrown weapons. All had an average damage below 7.

OrionW wrote: Collecting trinkets should be measurable better than collecting mystic staves that do damage at range. Otherwise what is the point of dealing with the consequences of fighting up close? Would you rather have a Staff of the Ancients or a collection of these? (Which can be had as a PYP for $50)

Between: Very tough choice; let me think about it. After all, it's not like the second build can automatically hit at Ranged for 10 damage five times per dungeon or anything in the case that Melee gets shut down.
Cleric main / Druid secondary

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Last edit: by Ho-Yi Fung.

2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 20 hours ago #22

Ho-Yi Fung wrote:

OrionW wrote: These rare items fill the gap up that other classes utilize cheap UR weapons for.

I don't know how to respond without sounding snarky, but... you are aware that a Druid can equip traditional UR weapons too, yes?
And if Rare Trinkets act like "cheap UR weapons", then what design space remains for UR Trinkets, that doesn't completely break the power level of URs?

OrionW wrote: If you are going to collect 5-7 of these so you can play a combat heavy VTD each one should be worth more than an average of 7 damage.

I collected 5-7 copies of +1 Nether Short Spear just so I could participate in combat, back when my primary build was Thrown weapons. All had an average damage below 7.

OrionW wrote: Collecting trinkets should be measurable better than collecting mystic staves that do damage at range. Otherwise what is the point of dealing with the consequences of fighting up close? Would you rather have a Staff of the Ancients or a collection of these? (Which can be had as a PYP for $50)

Between: Very tough choice; let me think about it. After all, it's not like the second build can automatically hit at Ranged for 10 damage five times per dungeon or anything in the case that Melee gets shut down.


Those 7 trinkets would be a 7 year collecting endeavor… think about what a 7 year transmute would get you.

The argument that these should be compared to rare weapons are disingenuous.

As for your BS damage comparison you can collect range damage items and just go spell damage and mystic staff damage which will benefit from both.

Clerics are the best healers in the game… let them heal.

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 20 hours ago #23

So, I don't believe I know how trinkets work currently.

I don't know that anyone does. We have gotten multiple changes without my understanding why we got a change in the first place.

Here's what I think the original vision was:
1. Each trinket can only be used once, has a unique form, that form can only be used once on a run.
2. More than one trinket of the same type is useless.
3. Different trinkets are useful. You could use Trollform in one room on a run and notTrollform one room in a run and notnotTrollform in a third room in a run, etc.
4. Trinkets have none of the problems of potions, but someone could quaff same potion multiple rooms and can't take same trinket form multiple rooms.

This might have been overpowered. It meant having multiple, *different* trinkets was useful, meant a druid could trinket in every room in a dungeon, and meant that a bunch of the same trinket wasn't important, this being different from potions where may want a bunch of same potion. Overpowered because there was no actual cost, unlike potions being consumed and requiring a way to quaff as free action or losing a round of combat.

But, it made sense. Anything that involves my wanting lots of the same trinket doesn't make sense with how they are 1/game. Anything where I never want more than one trinket type doesn't make sense.

New trinket is just strictly worse than Trollform, which I don't understand. I don't really care at all that it does 7 damage on average when I don't even understand how trinkets work. That trinkets will obsolete potions doesn't matter much to me, either. With potions, I viewed polymorphing as an esoteric thing to do as it meant jumping through various hoops to just function ... kind of like Sneak Attack.

How trinkets interact with Iktomi's can be figured out after we understand how trinkets work by themselves.

As for powering up druid, well, maybe that happens. Maybe can address that separately. Trollform already exists. It had a lot of questions and concerns last year. It still got made. We aren't creating new tokens without some sort of template. Should nail down the final mechanics so that it has some internal consistency so that we actually know how good or not they are.

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2025 Rare Tokens to Printer 2 months 20 hours ago #24

OrionW wrote: Those 7 trinkets would be a 7 year collecting endeavor… think about what a 7 year transmute would get you.

The argument that these should be compared to rare weapons are disingenuous.

Why do you need seven years? You can bring multiple copies of a Trinket into a dungeon and use each copy once.

OrionW wrote: As for your BS damage comparison you can collect range damage items and just go spell damage and mystic staff damage which will benefit from both.

You asked if I would rather have a PYP that takes up two hands that costs $50, or a stack of 7 slotless Trinkets that cost ~$11 (based on reputable token stores). That's not a very fair comparison.
In my suggested alternative, I come under the same budget: $50 and two hands slots. It's intended to be fair -- which part of it makes it a "BS damage comparison"?
Cleric main / Druid secondary

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