TOPIC: Politics

<br />The point of corporations is to make a profit.  The point of unions is to improve the lives of workers.<br />

<br /><br />that's true in theory, but in practice, many unions are an entity unto themselves.  they've gone from being a well intentioned group designed to protect workers, to a parasite that feeds off the very workers they would claim to protect.  There are good unions still out there, but they are far fewer than the bad ones.<br /><br />Politically, they fund politician just like a corporation does... and for the same ends.  the log cutters union supports deforestation, cause then they have jobs.. etc.  I'd bet you'd have a hard time defending the UAW at the moment considering the automotive industry.

Unions aren't perfect, but they are helping the maintain the middle class the corporations seem hellbent on destroying.  Plus, the amount of money donated by unions pales in comparison to that donated by corporations and business groups like the Chamber of Commerce.

I think we can agree that regulation of campaign contributions needs to be significantly curtailed if not stopped altogether, but beyond that, show me the data from an impartial source, because I simply don't believe unions are so put upon and benign. These guys put the whole state of Michigan in the trash by forcing the destruction of GM and Chrysler (not that the car companies didn't foolishly walk themselves to the brink gradually over the last 20 years by making the most arrogant and moronic business moves imaginable), and Ford too, but Ford was smart enough to borrow every penny it could early on and barely kept themselves from going belly up when GM and Chrysler tanked. Brian, did you know Obama rewarded his union cronies by purse stringing GM's bailout with a requirement for Union ownership of the company? Read the fine print. Did you know Japanese auto industry manufacturing is thriving in the southern US, where they don't have UAW?<br /><br />Where's the change? Is this the change we bargained for? Draining the swamp in Washington are we? We need change back. Come on man, open your eyes.

The Japanese auto industry is thriving because they make better cars.  And while they are not unionized, they follow the contracts the UAW reaches with other auto makers.

<br />I was a child raised on union money but as an adult I try to stay away from them.<br />My dad had only a sixth grade education and was raised in rural Arkansas and Texas. <br />I was not born in a barn, but we lived in one for a while. We had no electricity and got our water out of a cistern. My dad tried any honest work he could find. Eventually he got into the IBEW when I was 4 or 5. That move gave him a trade and union work brought our family of six out of serious poverty. I shudder to think how we would have ended up without the benefit that unions brought to millions of Americans. <br />Anyone taking a good look at the standard of working conditions and treatment by and at the hands of far too many employers can easily understand the need for the birth of the unions. There was a time when I believed that unions had outlived their usefulness. I guess I was thinking that we Americans had outgrown our tendency to use and abuse others to further our own profits. Hmm. In the last decade or two I have had to revise that thought.<br />I am fully aware that a few unions have become too powerful in some respects and have damaged certain industries. But, on the other hand, unions have also provide tens of millions of Americans with stable, safe, work. Comparing unions though is like comparing farmers, there are all kinds. Some good and some bad, but a lot more of us would be going hungry without them.<br />During one of our many pro/anti-union discussions my dad once told me that he understood that in the union environment there were numerous high level crooks running things and scraping off loads of money. But at the same time the same environment was providing lots and lots of average people with a good living. Thirty some years later, I don't see how that is very much different than what our politicians do.<br />In a perfect world, employers would not abuse workers and unions would not be needed. In a perfect world we would not need politicians either. <br />Greed, on both sides will ensure the need and survival of unions. <br />In the meantime, we get bread and circuses. A few of the very rich keep us squabbling amongst ourselves while the rest grab more wealth and power. And the world waits like vultures.<br />

Good story Molda. It's even worse than mine. There is no doubt that unions have done good things for many people in the past, and corporate bosses will take advantage of workers if left to their own devices. As you say, the problem is with the bosses. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. I also agree that the greed of men should never be underestimated. The problem may be right now that the pendulum has swung way too far to the left. Whether any of us is truly free can be debated. The more important question may be do we feel free? I have always felt free, and for the first time in my life, I feel that freedom being challenged. That's why I'm in the tea party.   

<br />Parents, take note:  Teach your children to stand up for what's right, before we forget how.  And if you're not a Parent... what's your excuse?  what are you doing to improve this country?<br />

<br /><br />We're improving the country by *not* having children. It's a shame that more parents didn't have the foresight to make the same responsible decision....

i chose not to have children and it might be a choice that i regret, but only I will regret that decision.<br /><br />i have to echo Incognito's words. too many folks have children and cannot do right by them, then both of them pay the price.

<br />Although, I respect the right of each and every person to live and die as he chooses (as long as he does it in his yard), I personally have to disagree with the attitude of abstaining from having children. (Unless of course, you intend/expect to raise brainwashed, idiotic consumers.) <br />I feel the only good hope for mankind is responsible parents raising responsible children. In the first place, I think that the human race, despite its many shortcomings, is worth saving. And second, have you ever heard the saying, "All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing"? Well, evil wins hands down if there are no good people to fight it.<br />Don't care? Your choice. But remember that choice when you see those you care about hurt and victimized by unrestrained acts of evil and stupidity that may have been dealt with by children unborn to otherwise responsible people. <br />In the last few years, I have heard time and time again the comment that we need a real leader to change things in Washington. Where is that leader? Perhaps he was never born because someone made a choice.

<br />Although, I respect the right of each and every person to live and die as he chooses (as long as he does it in his yard), I personally have to disagree with the attitude of abstaining from having children. (Unless of course, you intend/expect to raise brainwashed, idiotic consumers.) <br />I feel the only good hope for mankind is responsible parents raising responsible children. In the first place, I think that the human race, despite its many shortcomings, is worth saving. And second, have you ever heard the saying, "All it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing"? Well, evil wins hands down if there are no good people to fight it.<br />Don't care? Your choice. But remember that choice when you see those you care about hurt and victimized by unrestrained acts of evil and stupidity that may have been dealt with by children unborn to otherwise responsible people. <br />In the last few years, I have heard time and time again the comment that we need a real leader to change things in Washington. Where is that leader? Perhaps he was never born because someone made a choice. <br />

<br /><br />First off, with these philosophical issues there is no "right" answer. People can have completely different viewpoints and that's fine.<br /><br />The first overarching question is whether humanity is actually a "good" thing. Of course those with "traditional morals," the religious, and the human-centric will likely reply "of course!" but you could make some legitimate arguments to the contrary. Environmentalists would point out how destructive the human species is (sci-fi movies like the Matrix go as far as to label the human species as a parasite). Even from an economic point of view, looking at the scarcity of resources and the sheer amount of waste that the average consumer uses, high population growth simply does not seem to be sustainable.<br /><br />If you want to take it to another level, you can evaluate whether human nature is innately good or evil. (Or maybe neutral since in some religions, the default is purgatory). And bring in concepts like original sin, etc.<br /><br />My personal view (which is admittedly a bit elitest) is that the average human tends to be more disruptive than beneficial (though mainly through incompetence rather than through malice).<br /><br />People often use the hypothetical argument that some great leader/discoverer was never born when he/she could have been (it's an argument common used in pro-life debates). If anything, I think it's more likely that the average random person would end up accidentally killing your hoped for great leader (through negligence, drunk driving, school shooting, whatever).<br /><br />I always find the hubris of parents to be particularly amusing. People often seem to be so egocentric to assume that their religion, their culture, their way of parenting is *obviously* the right one. Everyone else's kids may turn out bad, but of course *my* kids are clearly divine gifts and are definitely going to benefit society (but that's what everyone thinks until their kid does something bad, and the tv cameras show the parents saying "my son/daughter could never do such a horrible thing!).<br /><br />I'm also always amused by how human-centric and species-ist most people are. Arrogantly assuming that the human species is of paramount importance and how it must be the pinnacle of existence.<br />

wow, even the off topic is off topic.

try out this argument...if i have children then i couldn't buy as many tokens as i do.  ;/