TOPIC: Forming Guild of Token Traders

On the issue of poaching: I personally consider poaching to really, really impolite. And we should discuss among ourselves how we wish to deal with this issue. (infact I am going to start a thread on that topic)

But need to remember we have no official standing with True Dungeon. So if someone outside of guild does something we have no recourse.

I am going to come up with something like buttons for our members (ideas appreaciated especially in the area of design).

Hey George,

I hesitate joining the guild because what I have seen and heard from Gen Con and TD forum that you put up. I did quite a few exchanges with you over the year since the tokens improve its image in 2007. I also did independent study valve on the tokens the last 3 years with personal, business and internet site. So I can be really helpful under the circumstance that given by outside influence of people's decision especially that of Jeff have an impact valve of the future of TD and that of noobie players.

What I hesitate is because of what you did at Gen Con and afterward? You see at Saturday earlier evening in the True Dungeon Event is going on, you set up shop next to the other person shop that is running his before you. We exchange as usual to even out my ingredients tokens and you. Then I came back later and that you have stack of 15 or 20 of each ingredient that were 5 in all complete set. I believe and guess you were buying a single ingredient token for 150 GP = $3.75 if the 1 GP for $0.025 apply here or gamingetc standard $6.00. Then I turn around try to get some more ingredient tokens from you and you said that you are not selling because it makes you money later on. Which is true to the least the one of the forumite continue to make it that way on the consistency basically. Then you turn around and post a thread for the selling of $10.00 an old ingredient tokens where by the other forumite has his some of the same old ingredient tokens for sell $5.00. Also made the other forumites buy them all up from him. This is call price gouging. Where you act in influence other to buy at that price that you influenced?

All in all, you need an independence third party to set up the price guide to really be fair about TD tokens that they have no influence in the market itself, but few adjust angle because you can't do it because you are a guild master for token trade.

I know it would be tough to get the ingredient tokens for the 4 Cauldron for next year is big and the rest for the Golden Fleece to make Eldritch part 1 & 2. For the next couple of years the price should increase steady.

As far as gambling is concern that I see nothing wrong for rolling dices for GP tokens in possibility gain of Common, Uncommon, Rare and even long shot of Ultra-rare because no money is exchange or promises because people made feel pressure on the side of the law without knowing what it is really. Or even taking side on one TD member over another and cause it to diversion of disharmony that not True Dungeon intent to be.

-Eversuede-

Aaah...

This is an excellent example of why I don't want to see an exact price guide.

Prices for individual tokens (especially ones in limited supply, like ingredients or dungeon completion tokens) vary wildly from one trader to the next.

What George did may irritate some people, but it was very good business practice. Trade at a low price to acquire a sought-after item, and re-sell it at a substantial profit, to people who were unable to spend the time/effort acquiring their own.

I will be honest, here. I did something very similar. I was buying ingredients for ~100 GP (or equivalent reds in trade) and selling for 200 or even 250 GP. When the Combos are announced, if it turns out that someone needs an ingredient I have, and needs it bad, I won't hesitate to sell for much higher (Year before last, I sold some ingredients for 1000 GP.)

But no one is going to force people to buy my expensive tokens. Or George's expensive tokens. Even if George was to buy other traders' ingredients at $5 each, there's still plenty of people who got ingredients at the Con, and can sell them much cheaper.

Or, we can wait until the combos are announced, and discover that the token which George bought for ~$3.75 and is selling for $10, is used in a recipe where it can be replaced by 25 GP. And then George (and I) lose money. It's a risk we're taking, and it's all part of the speculation game.

It would be wrong if people were told "Ingredients are worth exactly $X.xx or XX GP" and they found out later that this was not true. It would be wrong if people thought they had to trade with George because there were no other options. But I am pretty sure George, and many other traders, were up front that Ingredients were an unknown quantity, and that we were hoping to make a profit... and that there were many other people to trade with, if you didn't like the price.

So, thank you for your feedback regarding the experience you had. It is good to be able to share this sort of information. I, personally, will not hold it against George. If other people read it and feel the same way as you do, then they will be able to make a more informed choice in the future.

I didn't buy many tokens this year but when traders asked me how much they were worth I pointed them to the combo ingredient board. Last years were worth 40, 80 or 250 gp since they could be replaced by gp values. One trader kept trying to buy my orc ear and I told him at least 5 times that he just needed 250 gp. So he traded in some items for GP. After he got the 250 gp he said now he needed an Orc Ear. I laughed and told him he didn't and that he was set. He came back later and thanked me for my honesty. i asked him if he was still interested in the Orc Ear. We both had a good laugh. That is what trading should be.

Rafiq

Well, the value of the Ingredient Tokens this year isn't really equivalent to the value they replace in GP in the 1C, 2C, and 3C tokens, it is in the complete sets of ingredient tokens needed for the 4C combo token. I think everyone here realizes that the Ingredient Tokens are going to be worth at least $10-$15 each. Gamingetc was paying $6 each for them I think, and I think even more last year, and they have to make a profit to pay for the substantial cost of the booth at GENCON. You would think that token traders setting up for free should be paying at least what Gamingetc is paying, and maybe more.

For the vast majority of new players and casual players the main tokens that they will own that have real value are the Ingredient Tokens they get from the Token box. They have no idea what the value of an Ingredient Token is, and are in most cases assuming that the token traders setting up outside of True Dungeon are giving them a fair trade for their ingredient tokens.

It seems to me, that if the one of the main goals of a Traders Guild is to protect the new players, that one of the core tenets should be to agree among themselves to offer at least a minimum fair trade value for Ingredient Tokens to new players. To me that should be at least in the $6 - $8 price range. Otherwise, I think you may have a lot of unhappy people when they realize they were given a value far less than the actual value of the Ingredient Tokens. If the Guild can't even agree to a minimum trade value to be given in trades for Ingredient Tokens, I'm not sure there is much value to even having a Trader's Guild. Just my thoughts on the subject.

I think Mike is hitting on perhaps the most important fact. Raven, while I help run a business and what you said is true from a certain view point, by your own rules you would be setting up newbies to lose their shirts. They don't understand what these tokens are for and don't get that there is a forum to trade or even that there are many players that really would pay to get them. It is underhanded to take them for 100 gold knowing that if you wait on them you can turn it around for 1000. This is why there should be a price guide. We take up space right next to TD, I know we aren't officially representing the company but it is awfully close and to anger players like that is not acceptable.

archmage78 wrote: It is underhanded to take them for 100 gold knowing that if you wait on them you can turn it around for 1000.

I don't know I can turn it around for 1000, though!

There is one ingredient I have ever sold for over 250GP, and that's the Creeper thorn. And I don't think anyone knew at the time the Creeper Thorn came out, just how much they would be going for later. (As a note, if anyone out there is annoyed at how much they paid me for their Creeper thorns, let me know. We'll work something out.)

Most ingredients won't go for nearly that much, tho. I think even with the sets which Mike pointed out, they won't go much above $10 each. At least not for the average trader. For those players who really want a set/want the 4C combo, but who didn't have the time to trade for extras at the Con... yes, I think they might pay more for them... especially after the Combos are announced (prices for ingredients always go up then) But some people will also pay $250 for an UR on eBay which is still available as a PYP, and that's their call.

Mike Steele wrote: If the Guild can't even agree to a minimum trade value to be given in trades for Ingredient Tokens, I'm not sure there is much value to even having a Trader's Guild.

I think the value of a Trader's Guild goes beyond just agreeing on values... but yes, I will acknowledge that agreeing on a minimum "reasonable" value would be a good place to start.

So, is 100 GP an unreasonable purchase price for Ingredients? I don't know a lot of *casual* traders who could afford to buy them for too much more than that (tho we all know the serious traders can) ... and if 100 GP is too low, what would you suggest in its place? I know that if I'm expected to offer $6/ingredient, I will stop trading. Although, knowing that GamingEtc was offering that, I would be happy to just point people in Michelle's direction.

I understand that prices can fluctuate and yes the creeper thorn was a strange exception. I was simply trying to point out that one of the guilds ideals seems to be that we should make a place that even the newest players feel safe trading, and education is the most important aspect of that. As long as a player knows what he or she is giving away then it is fair. As long as ingredients are explained and the trader is honest about what can happen to the prices.

Reading over my post, I think it comes across a lot stronger than I'd planned, my apologies for that. I think that everyone that trades at a dealer's shop has an expectation that they will be trading at less than full value, as the dealer is investing time and/or money to set up and will be looking to get a return on that time/money investment.

Having a very visible price guide near the trading shops would address most concerns about making sure that even the new players are informed of the estimated value of tokens, and then can make informed decisions on trades. And to the vast majority of those that won't be trading in for a 4C Token, or cashing in for a Golden Fleece token to help pay for an Eldritch Item, the value of an Ingredient Token is understandably worth less to them than to those of us that will be doing so, and they may well be willing to trade that ingredient token for less than "book value".

I think it would be great if guild members could agree to a minimum price to trade items like an ingredient token at, but I realize that is a very complicated thing to do, and even setting a value is complicated since the values do change over time (even over short amounts of time). And I don't think anybody knows at GENCON what the relative value of ingredient tokens will be - it didn't become apparent until well after GENCON last year that the Creeper Thorn would be the rarest ingredient token. Even if some sort of value floor isn't agreed on, having a posted price guide of estimated values would be a great help to the brand-new players.

Raven wrote:

archmage78 wrote: It is underhanded to take them for 100 gold knowing that if you wait on them you can turn it around for 1000.

I don't know I can turn it around for 1000, though!

There is one ingredient I have ever sold for over 250GP, and that's the Creeper thorn. And I don't think anyone knew at the time the Creeper Thorn came out, just how much they would be going for later. (As a note, if anyone out there is annoyed at how much they paid me for their Creeper thorns, let me know. We'll work something out.)

Most ingredients won't go for nearly that much, tho. I think even with the sets which Mike pointed out, they won't go much above $10 each. At least not for the average trader. For those players who really want a set/want the 4C combo, but who didn't have the time to trade for extras at the Con... yes, I think they might pay more for them... especially after the Combos are announced (prices for ingredients always go up then) But some people will also pay $250 for an UR on eBay which is still available as a PYP, and that's their call.

Mike Steele wrote: If the Guild can't even agree to a minimum trade value to be given in trades for Ingredient Tokens, I'm not sure there is much value to even having a Trader's Guild.

I think the value of a Trader's Guild goes beyond just agreeing on values... but yes, I will acknowledge that agreeing on a minimum "reasonable" value would be a good place to start.

So, is 100 GP an unreasonable purchase price for Ingredients? I don't know a lot of *casual* traders who could afford to buy them for too much more than that (tho we all know the serious traders can) ... and if 100 GP is too low, what would you suggest in its place? I know that if I'm expected to offer $6/ingredient, I will stop trading. Although, knowing that GamingEtc was offering that, I would be happy to just point people in Michelle's direction.

Raven, I certainly wasn't trying to call you (or anyone else) out in my post, you are my favorite person to trade with (and one of my very favorite people in TD period) and you have ALWAYS been very generous in all trades that we've done. I would gladly steer anyone that is looking to trade tokens in your direction.

I just threw the $6 out as a starting point, I don't know if that is a reasonable trading floor or not. I do understand your point that Token traders are at risk in their trades, as we don't know what we'll be able to get for the tokens we trade for. And we won't really know the true value of this year's ingredient tokens until we see what the 4C Token is. If it is something equivalent to the Medallion of Greyhawk, the values will soar. If it's more like the Dragon Tooth Amulet, values will plummet (down to 1/10 of what a Golden Fleece might go for).

Due to the very small token buying and selling population (in comparison to something like Magic the Gathering) values in Tokens fluctuate wildly over pretty short amounts of time. Just a few years ago (2006) the top valued Ultra-Rare tokens were the Girdle of Hill Giant Strength, the +2 Longsword, the Dragonscale Shield, and Gearon's +2 Mace. The values of nearly all of those have dropped significantly since then. I'm curious to see what the introduction of Relic Tokens will do to Ultra-Rare values. For instance, if a +3 Plate Armor that is part of every set were to be introduced, the value of +1 Plate Armor and Plate Armor of Attack would plummet.

I understand too that token values are relative between traders. Just as an example Trader A might only have a few Lich Fingers and might be trading pretty highly for them, while Trader B might have a surplus of them and might be offering a pretty low amount for them

I say rather than set prices on tokens, we could just educate players on the relative rarity of the tokens. Knowing that there are 7 common tokens, 2 uncommon tokens, and 1 rare token in each 10 pack and that the ultra rares are only 1 in every 1000 tokens would go a long way towards helping players know the values of the tokens in general. Educating players on the specialty tokens would help them place their own value on them. I inform many players who pull ingredient tokens out of the treasure box what those tokens are and why they are valuable. If players are educated, they can place their own value on things.

As for the guild, I think just having a blessing from the guild that a trader is known to be fair is good enough. To hamstring guild traders to a particular price would actually kill trading IMHO. I might be willing to give away a rare to a new player who has nothing in return, while I would be more stingy with a token-a-holic. A new player may find that uncommon weapon and armor I have more valuable than the gold they have regardless of how much gold that is. I may collect tokens that are currently cheap and take the risk that those tokens will go up in value in the future.

All I'm saying is that many things go into deciding whether or not to trade tokens with people and to assume you can tie all of that into a particular price is impractical. I don't see anything wrong with guild members making a profit on their trades. To the player it's a useful token. To the guild member it may be one of the factors for buying large amounts of tokens. It's a noble thing to do to try to keep people from taking advantage of new players. However, intrinsically these tokens have no real value. Their only value is extrinsic and the only way to set that value is to allow open trading devoid of rules and regulations.

I think what a price guide represents is just information to the people who don't understand what they have. People just don't get what the ingredients are for. It wouldn't be right to take an ingredient for 100 gold if the person selling doesn't understand that if they started buying a few tokens they could get enough to trade in for their own trade items. I understand that the vast majority of these new players will never get enough tokens to turn in for an item, it is just that to be a truly open and fair trade area we should make sure the people understand what they have.