TOPIC: Raven's Rough Guide to Token Trading - W.I.P.

binia wrote: Do you want to hit on the trade item combos vs. the GenCon only combos? (I'm sure there's a name for this, which escapes me). Cauldron vs. anvil symbols.

I don't think so... not for an introductory document. They're both written in blue ink, and I think that's enough distinction for the average newbie. I mean, if I wanted to get into it, I could write several paragraphs on Combos, the when/where/how of it, what 1C, 2C, 3C means, trade combos, multi-year combos, etc. There's enough info for a whole other document.

Actually... you've got me thinking now.
It might be a good idea to put together a Rough Guide on Token Crafting, at some future date!

How about a note on wooden tokens somewhere? Especially if treasure maps/chests come back next year.

Heh... I thought about this one, too. My earlier drafts had a paragraph or two devoted to wooden tokens. I tried to give some history to them, describe the "year" symbols, and explain that some could be very valuable to certain collectors, but most people preferred chippies. Since the document was about trading, not just identifying, I tried to give some guidelines about what to do/where to look if you wanted to trade woodies... but that section got unwieldy. In the end, I just deleted it. I think (hope?) that woodies will be enough of a rarity for new players that they can do their own investigations if they want to be educated about them.

Re: trading an UR for rares - you suggest a range of 10-25 rares for an UR. I'd propose 20-25, if not 20-30 would be more fair. I know it depends on the rares (and the UR) - for instance, I doubt anyone would trade 10 PoDDs for a single Elixir of Life, but that is very much an exception.

Hahha.. indeed!
But in the same vein, I don't think anyone would trade 10 Weapon+1 tokens for a Longsword+2, either. Well, anyone hoping to get their hands on an UR might, but not - I think - a newbie trying to sell one. Even newbies realize you can only use max 1 weapon per hand. ; )

In the example I gave (immediately following the 10-25 rare trade range) I suggested that being fully equipped in Reds increased your odds of survival over a single +2 sword. What I am thinking, here, is that the average* newbie* is probably not going to draw an UR and think "Hey! This is worth a lot of money! How can I get the best monetary value worth of trades for this?" but "Cool! Now I can kill more stuff in the dungeon!"

*newbie=first time player, or casual player. The kind who comes to GenCon, plays 1 or 2 runs of TD, and packs away all their tokens til next year. Not because they don't like the game, but because their fun comes from running the dungeon, not from min-maxing character builds, crafting combos, or trading tokens.

*average = the type you meet hundreds of in the Marriott. Not the ones who show up on the forums, and talk TD all year 'round.

So, what I am thinking is, it's within the realm of "fair" to offer a deal like the following, to someone who plays TD for the dungeons, and not for the thrill of collecting:

Bastard Sword+1
Platemail
Tower Shield
Torq of Natural Armour
Ring of Protection +1
Ring of the Deep
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Belt of Ogre Strength
Cloak of Resistance +2
Potion of Death's Door

I'm willing to bet that almost everyone on the forums would turn down that deal, for one of their own URs. But that's because we've already got all that gear. And I haven't done the math, but I think that would be 1500 - 2000 GP of tokens, there. So, yeah, it's on the low side, GP-wise. But then, 2000 GP *is* on the low side for selling an UR (it says so in the guide) and 10 rares is on the low side for trade value. I'm not claiming it's a great deal. Just that I wouldn't expect someone to look for anything less.

If a newbie pulled a Druids Wild Vestments out of their 10-pack, and wasn't really a "Druid" kind of person... should they hold onto it, or should they trade it? If they decide to trade, should they talk to the 1 or 2 casual traders sitting near the admin desk and take a deal like the one suggested above, or should they run the dungeon (maybe die) and try trading the token afterwards when they can find some different/more serious traders who can offer better prices? Or maybe wait til after the Con and try to sell it on eBay?

Questions like those are why I am trying to put this Guide together.

I hope that a newbie with some iota of intelligence would read the Guide and think "Hm... 10 rares is kinda low. I could do better. But it's not unreasonable, either... especially if I want to make this trade fast, and get geared up for my run."

Or alternately, they could think "I could get 25 rares for this?? I'm gonna shop around until I find someone who will give me top value! Or maybe I could sell this on eBay and make $100!.. because I'd way rather have that, than a few more XP for making it through the dungeon."

I hope that makes sense. This guide isn't meant for us (well, not primarily). It's for players who might not have time to look around for the best deal, but want to know that they aren't being totally ripped off. And I'd hate to suggest a higher range of rares, and then have people refusing to trade for any less, and going thru the dungeon poorly equipped.

Then again..... if several other people chime in saying "No way. 20 - 40 rares is the minimum trade for an UR" then I will acknowledge that my 10 - 25 range is faulty.

Either way, I do appreciate the input, and am enjoying hashing this guide out with people who play the game a lot different than I do ; )

I think that simplicity is important in this document. New players are not going to want to read a tome in order to trade their tokens. You've done a fantastic job hitting the highlights of token trading without getting bogged down in all the details.

I agree and most reputable traders are quite willing to talk in length about tokens if the newbie really wants the details

Raven, I understand what you're saying, and I too, will be interested in other traders opinions. Funny you would mention a +2 longsword. That was my first ur, a random pull, and I traded it for 25 rares for exactly the reason you stated- I wanted to survive the dungeon. Weaver was the one who told me to stick to 25 rares, one of which was an elixir of life. I was able to fairly well equip both hubby and myself, we survived, and I didn't use the elixir. Phew!

Oh, and for the record, I'd trade 10 +1 weapons for almost any ur.

binia wrote: Raven, I understand what you're saying, and I too, will be interested in other traders opinions. Funny you would mention a +2 longsword. That was my first ur, a random pull, and I traded it for 25 rares for exactly the reason you stated- I wanted to survive the dungeon. Weaver was the one who told me to stick to 25 rares, one of which was an elixir of life. I was able to fairly well equip both hubby and myself, we survived, and I didn't use the elixir. Phew!

Oh, and for the record, I'd trade 10 +1 weapons for almost any ur.

I'd trade 10 +1 weapons for ANY Ultra-Rare

Mike Steele wrote:

binia wrote: Raven, I understand what you're saying, and I too, will be interested in other traders opinions. Funny you would mention a +2 longsword. That was my first ur, a random pull, and I traded it for 25 rares for exactly the reason you stated- I wanted to survive the dungeon. Weaver was the one who told me to stick to 25 rares, one of which was an elixir of life. I was able to fairly well equip both hubby and myself, we survived, and I didn't use the elixir. Phew!

Oh, and for the record, I'd trade 10 +1 weapons for almost any ur.

I'd trade 10 +1 weapons for ANY Ultra-Rare

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I would too.

jtillots wrote: I think that simplicity is important in this document. New players are not going to want to read a tome in order to trade their tokens. You've done a fantastic job hitting the highlights of token trading without getting bogged down in all the details.

I concur completely with this. Keep it short and simple and it will get used, discussed and passed around. You really have done a great job summing up a rather complex topic.

Kudos and/or pats on the back, whichever you prefer!

Raven wrote: Wow - brilliant post, Greyseer. Thanks for the insight into the way you price out your scrolls.

That is the kind of thing I would love to see on a more definitive price guide, or as a Trader's Guild supplement.

Most welcome, if I change the Rare Multiplier to x5 then I am spot on your pricing of the rares in your example, so I think we are fairly close. But since you are trying to keep it small - your text above more than suffices.

Though a few small tweaks could encompass some of the thoughts I had:

Damage scrolls: On average, scrolls that do damage are 1-10 GP per point of damage caused (less for low-end damage, more for high-end damage). Scrolls that require a save, or to hit an AC, are worth a bit less. Where those that hit multiple foes, or are usable by Divine classes, are worth a bit more. So a common Scroll of Magic Missile (4 pts, no DC) could be ~12 GP, while the rare Lightning Strike (12pts, no DC) is 120+ gp.

Thanks for the input (and the Kudos ; )

Greyseer, I used your text (almost word for word) to edit the guide. I also edited the text for healing scrolls to include a quick comment about which classes were the "Divine" castors, for a bit of clarity.

So.. back to the UR for 10-25 rares...
Should I change it to 25+ rares, to prevent a situation where a newbie thinks 10 Weapons+1 is a good trade, or should I let people use their common sense?

Raven wrote: Thanks for the input (and the Kudos ; )

Greyseer, I used your text (almost word for word) to edit the guide. I also edited the text for healing scrolls to include a quick comment about which classes were the "Divine" castors, for a bit of clarity.

So.. back to the UR for 10-25 rares...
Should I change it to 25+ rares, to prevent a situation where a newbie thinks 10 Weapons+1 is a good trade, or should I let people use their common sense?

Raven, I'd recommend changing it to 25+ rares. Almost any current UR they find is going to be worth 25+ rares. Of course, it could be worth 10 Rares if all 10 Rares were top-end, 500 GP value or more Rares, but I think most trades to new players is going to be a mix, with plenty of lower value Rares like Rare Weapons and Armor included.

I think most people are going to use good common sense on this, even in a hurry. All the folks I've met that fall into this category generally look to 1st know what all the slots are, then 2ndly to get a good rare for each.

People that see a range of 1-10 know that 1 is the "lowend" and that they are probably not getting the best deal. So if they saw the guide and remember 10 rares is the low, they know to ask for atleast that amount when filling all the slots.

sure 10 +1 weps for an UR is something we'd all do, but would you do 10 PoDDs? would you have done it 2 yrs ago?

I think the way you have it listed is good enough. or maybe as mike suggested add the + so they know its "ok" to ask for more.

Raven wrote: Thanks for the input (and the Kudos ; )

Greyseer, I used your text (almost word for word) to edit the guide. I also edited the text for healing scrolls to include a quick comment about which classes were the "Divine" castors, for a bit of clarity.

So.. back to the UR for 10-25 rares...
Should I change it to 25+ rares, to prevent a situation where a newbie thinks 10 Weapons+1 is a good trade, or should I let people use their common sense?

Raven - as a player of mostly magic-using classes - I think your current edit on price (with thanks to Grayseer)is pretty much on-target - I'd quibble details here and there, but for your intended audience and purpose - I think you're spot-on.

Secondly - as to URs - I'd say leave it mostly to common sense, just be aware of the caveat - "common sense is the LEAST common of the senses!"

And CHEERS! For a job well done on your Trade Guide!