TOPIC: Raven's Rough Guide to Token Trading - W.I.P.

Thanks for the suggestions, and the reinforcement on the price guidelines so far.

Okay, I've been thinking about the X rares for UR, and this is what I've decided to go with...

If you want to trade it away, look for a token trader who will give you 20+ rares in exchange.

I like Mike's open-ended "+"

Decided to go with the "20" for the simple reason that low end rares are 100 gp, and low price of URs is 2000 gp, so hopefully the reader can see the math with the x20 modifier... and then use their common sense (if they have it) to adjust their expectations if they are offered very high end URs instead.

I also hope people will look for a trader who can give them a nice number of rares, but also realize that, some days (or certain times of the day) you won't be able to find a trader available who can give top price.

Okay.... I am pretty comfortable with the way this document is turning out.

If anyone has further comments, please toss them into the ring!

Hi Raven,

Just a thought on the value of UR's - virtually none of them go for 2000 GP. 3000 GP is equivalent to $75, and that is the low end price for nearly all Ultra-Rares (most are closer to 4,000 as a lower limit). Maybe your guide should say 3000-6000 for current UR's? I think 6,000 is still a good upper limit for current UR's, since $250 will get you a UR plus 30 packs of tokens.

Also, for now at least, I'd value rare weapons and armor at far less than 100 GP. An Aragonite is equivalent to 25 rare weapons and armor, and it goes for 1,000 GP. So that would place the value of an average rare weapon or armor at 40 GP.

Thanks,
Mike

Wow!!

Great job! Wish I'd have had this at GenCon! I pulled buts-n-pieces of advice from several nice traders over the past coupla weeks - and this document not only pulls this all together, it fills in several gaps.

Your idea to discuss combos, GenCon only, etc. is valid, even if in another document. I've asked a couple people about that and the info is pretty light on the ground.

I appreciate your efforts, and the input from all the other experienced and helpful traders who seem to have the best interests of True Dungeon in mind.

Thanks, Tim. I'm glad to see this Guide getting good reviews from the target audience ; )

Okay, I have done a bunch more revisions (mostly tightening up the text) and managed to squeeze it down 3 or 4 extra lines. So, after a lot of feedback towards the topic, I put the section about Combos back in. It's just a very small section (can't fit much in 4 lines!) but I hope it gives a quick primer and (very) rough idea for trade values.

Mike Steele wrote: Hi Raven,

Just a thought on the value of UR's - virtually none of them go for 2000 GP. 3000 GP is equivalent to $75, and that is the low end price for nearly all Ultra-Rares
(snip)
Also, for now at least, I'd value rare weapons and armor at far less than 100 GP. An Aragonite is equivalent to 25 rare weapons and armor, and it goes for 1,000 GP. So that would place the value of an average rare weapon or armor at 40 GP.

Again, thanks for your feedback, Mike. It's great to have established traders as well as casual traders contributing.

This is one area, however, where I want to aim it more towards the casual, on-site, at the Con, traders. I think that most new players, having pulled an unexpected UR (and with that grin plastered on their faces) will not have the same priorities or knowledge base for trading that most of us would.

By "knowledge base" I mean, I know a dozen people (by face, by name, and by reputation) who could give me a good price for my UR. I know what gear I could equip with *instead* of that UR. I know that there's a bunch of cool stuff I want to acquire (from artisan tokens to OOP URs) which I am more likely to get if I hold onto the UR and use it for trade-bait later.

But a newbie pulling an UR doesn't know who to go to. He has to make do with what's right in front of him. Sometimes that will include a good trader. Sometimes it won't.
As for priorities, very few of us need another +1 longsword. But for a new player or casual collector, having a +1 sword might mean the difference between being able to play a fighter class, or being stuck with Monk. (my apologies to any monk afficionados reading this). Having $50 in cash might mean being able to take a cool game home from the Dealers Hall, and that could be more important to him than surviving one more room of TD.

That is why I mark the low end of the UR trade range in the Guide lower than it is on eBay or forums, and the value of rare weapons & armour higher. The trades which happen on the floor are often influenced by a lot of factors which are simply not an issue, online.

If I had the space, I would include a paragraph about the differences between online trading, and on-site trading. But, since the traders online are usually great about introducing new players to this arena, and the Guide itself is aimed at newbies & casual traders on-site, I figured I would skew it to that audience instead, and just not worry about it.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

BTW: Binia

I've got the table working on my version at home, but having given up trying to make it work for the forum.

Unfortunately, I didn't combine the info so much as display it differently. When I included details like the average price, and notes, the table got big & unwieldy. Some token details take up little room (common. black. 1-5 gp. low-end armour/weapons/gear) and others take up a lot (UR. purple. 2000-6000 gp. Best weapons&armour, magic rings, etc. OOP tokens go for much higher.) so forcing them into a table actually took up a lot more space in the guide than leaving them as-is. And since space is a constraint, having a table meant I'd need to take out a paragraph about something else. I ended up just making one small table for the basic info only.

Drat. Now I'll have to edit this to replace "Combo" tokens with "Transmogrified" tokens.

Or, Transmutable, I mean. But for some reason, I keep thinking transmogrify.

Woohoo! Thread Necromancy!!

I was thinking of working this file over again, to have ready for GenCon in a few days.

I've updated it to replace references to "Combos" with "Transmutables". I also decided to leave Artifacts and Legendaries out of it, because those won't reasonably be available to brand-new players.

Here's the current version (or see the first post)


Raven's Rough Guide to
~ True Dungeon Token Trading ~

Tokens are a fun part of the True Dungeon experience. Over the years many have been printed, and a small token-trading economy formed. You don't need to trade tokens, but you'll find that buying and/or trading lets you equip yourself better & increases chances of survival in the dungeon.

Due to the sheer volume of tokens printed and the ever-changing nature of the Dungeon, it's not possible to print a definitive list of values. Instead, This guide is a quick primer on the token-trading economy, to give you a rough idea of what your tokens are worth, so you can trade with confidence.

TOKEN RARITIES (~~~~~in table form it looks much better~~~~~~~)

Common BLACK Low-end weapons, armor, scrolls, basic gear
Uncommon GREEN Mid-range weapons, armor, decent scrolls, good potions
Rare RED Magic rings, +1 weapons, good armor, top-tier scrolls & potions
Ultra-Rare (UR) PURPLE Best weapons & armor, magic items, amulets & rings
Transmuted (crafted) BLUE Rarity varies, depending on star points or "cauldron" icons.
Roughly, 3 pt star = Rare, 4 pt = UR, 5pt = better than UR
Trade goods MAROON
Rarity varies; represents gold (GP), goods & crafting materials
Ingredients BLACK Monster trophies. Found only as Treasure. Used for combos

TOKEN PRICES
Tokens may be purchased directly from True Dungeon's administration desk.

$7.99 = One bag of 10 tokens (1 rare, 2 uncommon, 7 common, 1% chance of an UR)
$250 = Ultra-Rare Value Pack (30 bags, 1 UR of your choice, plus 30% chance of a random UR)

average price for GP on eBay = $.02 - $.05 per GP (depending on demand)
average value of commons = 1 - 5 GP … Except for healing & good consumables
average value of uncommons = 10 - 50 GP … Except healing & good consumables
average value of rares = 100 - 500 GP … prices vary a lot in this category
average value of an ultra-rare = 2000 - 6000 GP
average price for an UR token on eBay (current printing) ~ $75 - $150
average price for Out-Of-Print UR token on eBay: ~$100 - $250, but some go for much more.

Note: Ultra-Rare tokens from the current year are shown on large posters outside the True Dungeon admin desk. These tokens, PLUS last years UR's, are available for purchase (while supplies last) as part of the Ultra-Rare Value Pack. See above.

TOKEN TRADING

First, a Disclaimer: If you work out a deal with a friend or a token trader, and you'e both happy with it, then IT IS A GOOD DEAL. There's no hard & fast rule for what counts as fair. One man's steal-of-a-deal may be another's rip-off. If you get wrapped up in calculating the exact value of each token, you're likely to hoard them instead of trading for gear which could actually increase your life expectancy in the dungeon. Shop around if you like; browse eBay or the TD forums; visit sellers in the Dealers Hall; but when it comes down to it, make a transaction you are both happy with.

That said, here's some guidelines on what to expect…

COMMONS - If you are looking to buy commons, many traders will give them to you in trade for Gold Piece tokens (GP). You are less likely to trade or sell commons to token collectors, tho… They have plenty already. The exceptions are healing (everyone likes healing) and gems (worth GP)

Healing: On average, 1 point of healing costs ~25 GP. So, a 1-pt Cure Minor Wounds Potion would have an average value of 25 GP. A 5-pt Cure Minor Wounds Scroll would have an average value of 125 GP. Potions tend to be worth slightly more as anyone can drink them, vs. healing scrolls which can only be used by Divine castors (Clerics, Druids & Bards)… but it's roughly comparable.

Damage Scrolls: On average, damage scrolls cost 1-10 GP per point (less for low-end damage, more for high-end). Scrolls which require a save, or to hit an AC, are worth a bit less; scrolls which hit multiple foes or are marked "Divine" are worth a bit more. So a common scroll of Magic Missile (4pt, no save) could cost ~12 GP, while the rare Lightning Strike (12pt, no save) goes for 120+ GP.

UNCOMMONS - Although some potions & scrolls will be sought after, most big traders don't buy these. However, if you look around, you may find traders who will trade you commons for a couple uncommons, so your basic gear is covered. You can also buy uncommons with GP.

RARES - These vary considerably in price. Rare weapons & armor usually trade for 100 - 150 GP. A Magic Ring is usually worth 200 - 250 GP. A Potion of Death's Door can be 250 - 500 GP. Most traders can outfit you in class-appropriate weapons & armor in trade for GP, or high-end rares.

URs - Many new players wander around trying to trade their uncommon and rare tokens for the sought after Ultra-rares. This is generally a waste of time (Sorry!) You are unlikely to find a trader who will part with an UR for anything less than another UR. However, there are some who will sell them for GP. An average UR can fetch 2000 - 6000 GP. Out of Print URs will often cost more.

If you are lucky enough to find an UltraRare token in your bag, or draw one from a treasure chest, you will have a much easier time finding someone who wants to buy it from you! Some people choose to hold onto their URs, and that is totally cool. (We all understand the lure of a shiny +2 sword, or magic armor!) If you want to sell it for cash, you can probably get $50 - $150 for it (depending on the token). If you want to trade it away, look for a token trader who will give you 20+ rares in exchange. You will probably find that a single +2 weapon contributes less to your survival than having +1 melee and +1 ranged weapons, top-tier armor, rings on both hands, magic boots, belt, cloak, an amulet raising your AC, and a pocketful of healing, scrolls, and useful potions.

TRANSMUTABLES & TRADE GOODS - Not everyone gets involved with Crafting, as it takes time & effort. Certain transmuted tokens can be created at the Con, but Trade Ingredients must be mailed in during the year. Occasionally Transmuted tokens can be found as Treasure. Their value is proportional to how hard they are to make. A 3-pointed star at the bottom of the token= easy (trade value similar to rare), 4 pts = hard (trades like URs), 5pts = UR+. Recipes may be found online.

INGREDIENTS - Some players are happy if they reach into the Treasure box and draw out ingredients (aka monster trophies, representing monsters encountered in the dungeon.) Other players, who don't get involved with Transmuting/crafting, are disappointed. The good news is many traders are looking for ingredients and will give you a nice deal for them.

Ingredients can be worth anywhere from 100 - 500 GP, or can be traded for Rares like +1 weapons and magic rings. Some traders are looking for specific ingredients, where others will buy any&all of them. Ingredients from previous years (whose combo recipes are no longer valid) tend to be worth much less, so this is one situation where holding onto tokens does not increase their value.

Hi Raven,

Looks great. I just have a couple of thoughts on it:

1) "Ingredients BLACK Monster trophies. Found only as Treasure. Used for combos" - perhaps you should change "combos" to "transmuted tokens" to be consistent.

2) Personally I'd put the range for ingredient tokens at 200-1000 GP or 300-1000 GP. It is common for the newer ingredient tokens to go for $15-$25 or more. Golden Fleece tokens are going for $70 or more, which would put the bottom range for ingredient tokens at close to 300 GP. I can't imagine a Golden Fleece token going for $25, which is what it would be at 100 GP per ingredient token.

1) Good catch, Mike. I thought I'd changed all the references to combos but that one escaped me.

2) I have very mixed feelings on the price of Ingredients. The forums here are a very skewed representation of the TD player base. People who are here year-round are very involved with the entire TD experience, and include those folks who have (literally) thousands of dollars of tokens sitting around, waiting to be transmuted into fabulous new tokens with the simple addition of the right Ingredient or Golden Fleece. Yes: here and on eBay, ingredients have gone for $20+ .. particularly when people thought the Golden Fleece would be used in more recipes than just the Legendaries.. or for those people who needed one *specific* ingredient to complete their recipe.

But if every newbie who pulls an ingredient out of the treasure box thinks to him or herself "Wow, I can get 500 GP for this!", we're going to have hundreds of people who wont settle for anything less, and not too many merchants who want to spend 5000+ GP just buying ingredients. They will end up walking around with them in their pockets, instead of trading them.

I'm not trying to bilk anyone setting the expected price that low. I'm trying to adjust for the market demand, when the forumites meet the casual players. Does that make sense?

Still, if consensus is that 500 GP is too low, I can raise it, or put 500+

Hi Raven,

I think the price on the lower end should be lower than 500 GP. The lowest I've seen them trade or sell for is around $7, so maybe 250 GP at the bottom? 250-1000 GP seems to cover the normal range, with a few outliers below or above it.

I suspect prices will go up in the next couple of years for ingredients. The reason there are as many available as there are is because there have been "off-years" when you couldn't apply the complete set for a 4C token. But I wouldn't be surprised if there are 4C equivalent transmuted tokens each year now. And starting in 2013 there will also be the complete sets from each year that can be applied to the +1 Level Ring.

Thanks!
Mike

Excellent points Mike.

What if I change it to 250-750 GP ?

I'm still leery of putting 1000GP because of the expectations it could set up. But if any merchants want to put a sign on their booth(s) saying "Buying ingredients for 1000 GP!" and scoop the market on casual players who are looking to unload their "useless" ingredients, that is fine by me.

Raven wrote: Excellent points Mike.

What if I change it to 250-750 GP ?

I'm still leery of putting 1000GP because of the expectations it could set up. But if any merchants want to put a sign on their booth(s) saying "Buying ingredients for 1000 GP!" and scoop the market on casual players who are looking to unload their "useless" ingredients, that is fine by me.

Raven, that sounds like a very good range. 750 GP is equal to $18.75 or more (if the exchange rate is higher), that seems like a very reasonable upper end for most ingredient tokens.