TOPIC: How to improve 2 handed weapons?

Wasn't there talk last year of a UR that would allow a two-handed weapon to be held in one hand? This doesn't really change the damage wheel issue, but it at least makes them more viable the the Orb of Might change.

The question is, which slot would best for the UR? An amulet wouldn't be worth giving up the other neck slot items. The hand slot would require dropping Mithral Gauntlets, which isn't worth the damage wheel trade-off. It's probably too powerful for a basic charm or ring, but I could see some kind of UR-Relic-Legendarily progression with this kind of theme at either of those slots.

what about a runestone that alows a 2 hander to be held in one hand

slith wrote: what about a runestone that alows a 2 hander to be held in one hand

That has potential, if it were consumable it could be of a lower rarity so newbies could have access too (one assumes the token rich would just stockpile several).

slith wrote: what about a runestone that alows a 2 hander to be held in one hand

i had suggested that last year..like charm of monkey grip

How about of the one handed item we make something along the lines of

Charm of Great Striking- Adds +4 damage to attacks made with two handed melee weapon.

It could even be upgraded

Charm of Mighty Striking- Adds +6 damage to attacks made with two handed melee weapon.

Charm of Supreme Striking- Adds +8 damage to attacks made with two handed weapons.

None of these ideas are bad by themselves until we stop to realize that it is the progression of one handed weapons that has caused the problem. Their damage wheels have caught up to the two handed weapon damage wheels. The Dread Sword and Dire Axe have damage wheels just as good as any two handed weapons and the Bastard sword has only slightly worse. These one handed weapons do obsolete two handed weapons. Throw in the Scepter of might, which I know doesn't even come close until you throw in the 5 piece might set bonus, and the extra strength from the orb and then it's doing way more damage then a two handed weapon. Why would I take two hands and a third slot just so I can make a weapon better then something that takes up 1 slot? You are already taking two slots to get the weapon, it by itself needs to be better and the only way to do that is to come out with new ones that have better damage wheels. New One handed weapons have started to obsolete older one handed weapons, yet two handed weapons have not followed suit; which is why they are not any good anymore. Again, it shouldn't take three slots to match one. There is no reason we couldn't have an UR two handed weapon with a 13, 14 or 15 top damage number. Yes it is better then old UR's but so was this years Dire Axe.

For the record, I was one of the very few people complaining about the Dwarven Dire Axe's damage wheel is being too good. Unfortunately, as is typically the case, too many people get enticed by the "ooh! shiny!" potential of tokens and this is what we end up with.

I agree that most UR 2-handers are rather lacking.

I will say the old +2 Holy Great Sword (7.5 average, which is usually 10.5 average for Paladins) was actually quite good in its prime, but even it has been eclipsed in most builds.

You will still occasionally see the +2 Great Club of Bashing (7.5 average, occasionally 10.5 for Barbarians against certain monsters), but this is even less reliable than the Holy Great Sword.

Last year's +2 Staff of Striking was really atrocious. Even Wizards and Clerics aren't going to bother with it.

The Maul of the Titans might be funny since it has a potential for 25 (good if you are skilled), but it has a STR requirement, no bonus to hit, and the average damage is a pitiful 6.875.

The +2 Long Spear of Dragon Slaying is pretty atrocious. With just 6.5 average damage, it's not worth the two hands. The only reason to ever use one is against Dragons (could be another case of overestimating the instant kill, like with the +2 Mace of Dispelling).

Last year's +2 Heavy Trident of Skewering is definitely a step in the right direction. 8.5 average damage and if you are a good slider, you can potentially add an additional 5 on top of that.

In contrast, you have the +2 Dread Sword (7.5 avg), +2 Dwarven Dire Axe (7.2 avg) and the rare +1 Bastard Sword (6.3 avg).

2-handers have A LOT of ground to make up, and needs more weapons like the +2 Heavy Trident of Skewering and less like the +2 Long Spear of Dragonslaying or +2 Staff of Striking.

Nice breakdown, Incognito. Puts things into perspective.

eldrad12000 wrote: I don't think adding the extra damage is will unbalance the game, they need to do more damage, its as simple as that. And increasing the damage wheel is the easy way to do that.

I'm in favor of adding damage, the question is how much?

darkangel866 wrote: Too little damage and they still won't be used. Too much and they unbalance the game.

Here are some other things to consider about the weakness of 2 handed weapons:

If you use a 2-handed weapon, you cannot complete a set. You can get up to Mithral 5 piece bonus or Might 3 piece bonus. All of the sets have either a Weapon or a Shield in them.

There are 1-handed weapons that generally equal current 2-handed weapons: +2 Dwarven Dire Axe, +1 Bastard Sword and +2 Dread Sword.

Currently, tokens that help 2-handed weapons are in coveted slots (rings). If they were moved to less competitive slots, they may be used more.

Incognito wrote: Last year's +2 Heavy Trident of Skewering is definitely a step in the right direction. 8.5 average damage and if you are a good slider, you can potentially add an additional 5 on top of that.

I know I was happy with mine. It was one of the best weapons that I've had. Paired with:
- Gauntlets of Ogre Power
- Fire Bracers
- Girdle of Hill Giant Strength
- Ring of Brilliance
- Helm of the Boar
- Bard bonuses

I was drilling the creatures. Got at least three 20 slides on the boards. I did have help from my friend the monk by him bumping me in at twice.

Generally, I'm against trying to expand existing sets even more (specially the Might and Mithral ones).

However, I would consider some sort of 2-handed weapon that helps with one (or more) of those sets.

Maybe a 2-handed weapon of Might or, on the extreme side (which might be too much) a Mithral + Might 2-hander.

The main logic is that if you are using a 2-hander you can't use the +2 Scepter of Might or the Orb of Might, and you also can't use the +1 Mithral Long Sword.

On a separate note, it would be nice to see a new Sundering weapon. How about a 2-handed Sundering weapon with a reasonable damage wheel? I do occasionally see Barbarians and Fighters questioning whether they should bother with the Cestus (due to the D6 damage). A 2-handed option with a balanced damage wheel could help out.

The following quotes were taken from the Token Development Thread. Edited to conserve space and our eyes.

Picc wrote: Ring of titans grip : usable by Fighter, paladin, barbarian equipped character may use two handed melee weapons as if they were one handed melee weapons.

Jeff Jackson wrote: Being as 2-handed weapons are traditionally much larger & have a significantly different balance than one-handers, I think it might make sense to put a minimum strength requirement of some sort on any rune, charm, ring, etc... that allows them to be used 1-handed.

Also, wouldn't 2-handers being used in this fashion promote Orb of Might sleaze?

Christopher Nieporte wrote: I do agree about the strength thing. Make it 20-22 Strength. (For clarification, the Maul of the Titans requires 24 strength to even wield as a two-hander.)

As for promoting Orb Sleaze, I don't think so. The major sleaze came from being able to equip it in the Ranged Off-hand Slot. If that were still the case, something like this would allow them to use a 2-handed weapon, a shield, and the Orb of Might. With the new rule going into effect, the character might be able to use a 2-handed weapon in one hand, but they would still have to choose between a shield, or the Orb of Might.

That's just my opinion.

Okay, I don't think turning 2-handed weapons into 1 handed weapons is a good idea, for several reasons.

1) It defeats the purpose of a 2-handed weapon. There needs to be Risk/Reward for anyone choosing to use a 2-hander. Currently there is no reward. Turning them into 1-handed weapons gives them no risk.

2) It will become easy to build a character that abuses the ability to use 2-handed weapons in 1 hand. Just having the Orb of Might as an off-hand option will give the 2-handed weapon an additional +1/+3. (I know this was allowed until this year through the Ranged Off-Hand, but see #3)
On top of that they can use the current (and any future) 2 handed weapon bumps with it, particularly Ring of Brilliance.

3) It will severely limit the tokens that can be produced in the future, both 2 handed weapons and tokens that modify them.

4) Having a permanent item that allows 2-handed weapons to be used in 1 hand would obsolete any non-set 1 handed weapon for the classes that could use them.

If the idea is implemented, I would like to see Jeff make another Transmutable Runestone, so the numbers made would be severely limited.

I'm in the camp of improving 2-handed weapons in some fashion. Here's some of the ideas I've liked so far:

1) Improving average damage. The question is where should that average damage number be? I would like to see it near 9-9.5. From there it could be adjusted upward if needed.

2) Other items bolstering 2-handed weapons. The Rings this year were a good start, but not enough. I have a Ring of Frost which gives +2 damage on 1 handed weapons as well as 2 handers. If the Ring of Brilliance had been a transmutable to +4 item, I think we would be closer to what's needed.

3) Giving 2-handed weapons USEFUL unique abilities. Make some 2-handed weapons that have abilities you can't get anywhere else:

Sundering (just don't reprint Seylah's Cestus)
Morphing (can be part of a set of choice)
Slotted (can have an extra Ioun Stone, Runestone, Ring, or Charm)

I'm sure there are more good ideas out there.