TOPIC: Counterfeit Token Concerns

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

Picc wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Kaledor wrote: I think Dave is right about not getting the coached involved.

That's fine, but that's a different issue. In 2015, Jeff wanted coaches to inspect and tally treasure enhancing tokens. So we did. Therefore, in 2015, if a player had a high-value treasure enhancing token in a binder and refused to let me inspect it, I would be HIGHLY suspicious and almost certainly would not allow the player to use it.

In 2016, if Jeff decides he wants to implement some other policy to reduce fraud, I'm cool with that.

What does a coach do when they think they have spotted a fake token though? I've called an AC to have questionable tokens inspected twice in my tenure. Once they were able to make it in time, the other no one was available to escalate too before the group launched and the fakes went through. The current policy only really lets up raise the flag if we see something suspicious, I don't think we actually have the authority call out fakes or reject tokens.

Is TD or someone going to tell a person who purchased a fake for 800 that they cannot use it? I do not think that is the answer. The guy/gal just got ripped off and now a coach is going to tell them they cannot use it? That would be pretty poss poor.

will a casino let you trade in fake poker chips?
will the government let you use fake money...even if you got it from a bank

the answer is no...and you dont get it reimbursed from them either

First this is two different things. You cannot purchase current casino tokens on the internet.

They might have the person very upset that they cannot use the item... it is an ugly situation all the way around and a coach should not be in the middle of it.

The ebay item id given is invalid, no result has been sent

Kaledor wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

Picc wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Kaledor wrote: I think Dave is right about not getting the coached involved.

That's fine, but that's a different issue. In 2015, Jeff wanted coaches to inspect and tally treasure enhancing tokens. So we did. Therefore, in 2015, if a player had a high-value treasure enhancing token in a binder and refused to let me inspect it, I would be HIGHLY suspicious and almost certainly would not allow the player to use it.

In 2016, if Jeff decides he wants to implement some other policy to reduce fraud, I'm cool with that.

What does a coach do when they think they have spotted a fake token though? I've called an AC to have questionable tokens inspected twice in my tenure. Once they were able to make it in time, the other no one was available to escalate too before the group launched and the fakes went through. The current policy only really lets up raise the flag if we see something suspicious, I don't think we actually have the authority call out fakes or reject tokens.

Is TD or someone going to tell a person who purchased a fake for 800 that they cannot use it? I do not think that is the answer. The guy/gal just got ripped off and now a coach is going to tell them they cannot use it? That would be pretty poss poor.

will a casino let you trade in fake poker chips?
will the government let you use fake money...even if you got it from a bank

the answer is no...and you dont get it reimbursed from them either

First this is two different things. You cannot purchase current casino tokens on the internet.

They might have the person very upset that they cannot use the item... it is an ugly situation all the way around and a coach should not be in the middle of it.

i think you can

The ebay item id given is invalid, no result has been sent

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

Picc wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Kaledor wrote: I think Dave is right about not getting the coached involved.

That's fine, but that's a different issue. In 2015, Jeff wanted coaches to inspect and tally treasure enhancing tokens. So we did. Therefore, in 2015, if a player had a high-value treasure enhancing token in a binder and refused to let me inspect it, I would be HIGHLY suspicious and almost certainly would not allow the player to use it.

In 2016, if Jeff decides he wants to implement some other policy to reduce fraud, I'm cool with that.

What does a coach do when they think they have spotted a fake token though? I've called an AC to have questionable tokens inspected twice in my tenure. Once they were able to make it in time, the other no one was available to escalate too before the group launched and the fakes went through. The current policy only really lets up raise the flag if we see something suspicious, I don't think we actually have the authority call out fakes or reject tokens.

Is TD or someone going to tell a person who purchased a fake for 800 that they cannot use it? I do not think that is the answer. The guy/gal just got ripped off and now a coach is going to tell them they cannot use it? That would be pretty poss poor.

will a casino let you trade in fake poker chips?
will the government let you use fake money...even if you got it from a bank

the answer is no...and you dont get it reimbursed from them either

First this is two different things. You cannot purchase current casino tokens on the internet.

They might have the person very upset that they cannot use the item... it is an ugly situation all the way around and a coach should not be in the middle of it.

i think you can

Yes vintage casino chips that cannot be used anymore.

The ebay item id given is invalid, no result has been sent

Kaledor wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

Picc wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Kaledor wrote: I think Dave is right about not getting the coached involved.

That's fine, but that's a different issue. In 2015, Jeff wanted coaches to inspect and tally treasure enhancing tokens. So we did. Therefore, in 2015, if a player had a high-value treasure enhancing token in a binder and refused to let me inspect it, I would be HIGHLY suspicious and almost certainly would not allow the player to use it.

In 2016, if Jeff decides he wants to implement some other policy to reduce fraud, I'm cool with that.

What does a coach do when they think they have spotted a fake token though? I've called an AC to have questionable tokens inspected twice in my tenure. Once they were able to make it in time, the other no one was available to escalate too before the group launched and the fakes went through. The current policy only really lets up raise the flag if we see something suspicious, I don't think we actually have the authority call out fakes or reject tokens.

Is TD or someone going to tell a person who purchased a fake for 800 that they cannot use it? I do not think that is the answer. The guy/gal just got ripped off and now a coach is going to tell them they cannot use it? That would be pretty poss poor.

will a casino let you trade in fake poker chips?
will the government let you use fake money...even if you got it from a bank

the answer is no...and you dont get it reimbursed from them either

First this is two different things. You cannot purchase current casino tokens on the internet.

They might have the person very upset that they cannot use the item... it is an ugly situation all the way around and a coach should not be in the middle of it.

i think you can

Yes vintage casino chips that cannot be used anymore.

some of them appear you can still use..they dont say expired...fake or replica on them or in discription

Poker chips are beside the point...

If you buy a fake Black Lotus, WoTC is under no obligation to replace it with a real one, nor are they obligated to let you use it in a sanctioned tournament. In fact, for the integrity of the game, they have to tell you no or it's a slap in the face to those who got theirs legitimately.

Jeff is a good guy, but he just can't replace a bunch of fake tokens for real ones. That just encourages the scum to make even more. And he doesn't legally have to, in my layman's opinion. And yes, people will be upset. But this the criminals fault, not Jeff's. So let's all work together to figure out who is causing the problem.

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: The downside of that is a complete lack of privacy. Some people don't want everyone to know what's In their collection.

YES!!!

Unless I'm currently grouped with you*, my tokens are none of your damn business.

*the general "you"

Also - there have been incidents in the last few years of moderately high profile magic players known to play in vintage/legacy being targeted for mugging / robbery in parking gararges etc. due to the value of their collections.

If someone is carrying around five or six figures worth of tokens, they needen't be advertising this fact to anyone with an internet connection.

This thread has gone all over the board.

If you reread Jeff Martin's first post, you may note that he is already taking the appropriate steps to manage this situation. As far as I know, this is not costing more money, not adding ridiculous complications to the game, not publicizing anyone's token collection, and maybe it will solve the problem.

Disbeeleaf wrote: This thread has gone all over the board.

If you reread Jeff Martin's first post, you may note that he is already taking the appropriate steps to manage this situation. As far as I know, this is not costing more money, not adding ridiculous complications to the game, not publicizing anyone's token collection, and maybe it will solve the problem.

When people steal from Jeff and TD, they are also stealing from us, the invested community. So, we shouldn't discuss ideas to help because... why again? People are understandably concerned, or upset, or annoyed and rather than complain, people have been putting out ideas in an effort to help. So rather than react in a negative manner, the TD community has remained positive and helpful. So rather than disparage the responses in this thread, I applaud them. I applaud the sense of community and rallying to offer solutions and ideas while remaining positive.

Jeff Martin wrote: We have intercepted another counterfeit token, and we believe there are at least two parties now making counterfeits. I wanted to let everyone know (most especially the counterfeiters) that we will be taking extra precautions moving forward -- especially with the Charms of Avarice and other high level tokens. Special actions are now in place during the transmuting process, serial numbers will be added to new high-level tokens, and we will be adding in a verification process at Gen Con.

I strongly urge everyone to record whom you buy any tokens from (maybe write their name or unique mark on the token back) to discourage the crooks.

Also, I have been in contact with an old friend who is a Special Agent with the FBI, and there is interest in pursuing this case. We are now deciding whether or not to proceed. I will do my utmost to protect the amazing token collector community.

Just a reminder of what Jeff said. Sounds like some smart, practical, concrete steps are being taken for the good of the TD community.

Graven wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote: A unique token color could be done for URs too, if Jeff really wanted to. All that would need to change is using an opaque cellophane wrap instead of the clear ones used now.

^What I was thinking.

Joshua Baessler wrote: Not sure it's really necessary... ...I would imagine most counterfeit URs are being used in-game, and those people are just cheating themselves.

It is possible that there are people selling/trading fake URs, and we don't see it because the UR's are not being turned into TD. There's no data on this.

However, I'm not really worried about this, as most of the trading I'm aware of is done by well establish members of the forum.

I don't think we need to change the URs. That said, a purple back would be cool. It would add to the coolness of getting one for the first time and cut down on new players not recognizing that the UR in their pack is special.

Side note: I wish this was a Lord and Lady's thread, and not open for Guests to read. At least the bit where we are all discussing possible hidden security features.

Purple Backs are already used by the Arcane tokens.

I think the only feasible security for URs is some change to the label (UV ink, glow in the dark ink, foil, hologram have all been suggested). I think foiling or hologram would be really cool. Most of the CCG games out there use foil/hologram patterns on their URs to make them stand out and to cut down on counterfeits (although Eastern Europe makes some really, really good ones...).

Glow in the dark/UV reactive ink would make lost tokens easier to find. Plus, imagine the cool factor if a black light was set up above the slider board.

I would prefer URs stay gold so they don't stand out when looking at ten packs of tokens.