TOPIC: Counterfeit Token Concerns

commanderFuron wrote: How about using real precious metal in the tokens? Counterfitting real gold would at least be more costly to discourage counterfeits.

If tokens contained actual valuable metals then they wouldn't do such a good job of serving as a funding source to put on the True Dungeon event.

Forar wrote: Plus it could add further issues for sellers and resllers. I've found a few sites that'll sell sealed 10 packs.

Given them a manner of knowing for a fact what was in the sealed pack (especially if only the high value tokens are 'chipped') would have some unfortunate unintended consequences.

In my opinion, if this went as far as RFID or another electronic solution it should not be applied to anything inside of 10-packs for this reason. I don't think we need these types of measures on URs in my opinion, except possibly the Teeth of Cavadar, but those aren't in 10-packs.

Garrison wrote: I think the more simple the solution, the better.

It would be ideal if Jeff (or an official representative) could offer a verification service to pass tokens through in the event of a trade or sale, to verify legitimacy. I realize Jeff has been kind enough to do this occasionally, but a paid service would be more fair to him I think.

I want to buy a Charm of Avarice? I could take the risk and just buy it as usual, but I would be willing to - for instance - send $25 to Jeff and have the token shipped to him first, then directly to me from him if it's legit.

Registration systems can get hairy and complicated really quickly, and will never be 100% accurate. Having expensive tokens pass through Jeff first would also allow him to create all sorts of anti-counterfeit measures that would not need to be made public (and thus would remain much more secure).

Complicated & costly. Negative ROI. Gotta keep it simple. At best - right now there is additional cost incurred in the security process. The simpler the system, the less the cost, the less the amount passed down indirectly to the general player via increase in prices.

It's good to see that True Dungeon is invoking more quality control and security with token production. I would encourage actual assurances with the making of the coins. Holograpic serial number images and ultra-violet patterns on the paper and lamination is a great start, but quality control of the coins is the next step. Precious metal may not be the way, but another metal with a slightly different weight could work? Jeff has to keep this to himself, but our transactions are the other part. This way the offenders can be tracked down.

I had heard some chatter about this and it's really stopped me from buying tokens because I'm afraid I'm going to end up with counterfeits. Is it only Charms of Avarice? What else is being forged? I'm glad to hear about serialization and other measures. This might be somewhere else in the forum but I wonder where are real tokens produced/printed?

Edwin Morales wrote: I had heard some chatter about this and it's really stopped me from buying tokens because I'm afraid I'm going to end up with counterfeits. Is it only Charms of Avarice? What else is being forged? I'm glad to hear about serialization and other measures. This might be somewhere else in the forum but I wonder where are real tokens produced/printed?

If you order directly from True Dungeon (this site) or a reputable player (feel free to ask here before making a purchase) you'll be just fine, and in the very unlikely event that you get a counterfeit they'll make it right.

The problem, as I understand it, is a very small issue (percentage wise) that Jeff is proactively working on before it becomes a bigger problem. I'd also be surprised if somebody bothers to make counterfeit tokens worth less than a few hundred dollars.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Disbeeleaf wrote: All that is needed here to prevent fakes is a number application on high value tokens, as we now have with the ROSP.

We don't need token shepherds, over reaching management of private trading, or additional complications and cost burdens.

You would think Obama was calling the shots for heaven's sakes.

Numbering the tokens is definitely not enough by itself. Why not? Because I sell you CoA #1254 on eBay. How do you know it is legit? For all you know Jeff never printed #1254, or possibly somebody else already has #1254 and you have a forgery.

I've been doing software development for almost 25 years now and this included some work for financial institutions. I'm pretty familiar with designing and implementing secure systems. As I said a numbered token is necessary to avoid counterfeits, but alone it is not sufficient. A simple registration system, however, is not that difficult, especially since we already have accounts here at truedungeon.com.

The important thing is that designing security measures isn't necessarily difficult, but it has to be well thought out. Many smart people have designed flawed systems simply by underestimating the amount of thought that needs to go into it.

I agree with that. The ROSP has an unofficial registry.

Everything listed so far involves increasing the cost of tokens for Jeff. RFID tags with numbering and ability to read/write to them do not come cheap ($2-$5 a piece). Even credit card companies are resisting RFID tags. Logging/numbering of tokens involves a lot of work, which turns into cost.

I totally agree this is a relatively small problem, although expensive to someone when it happens. Of all the suggestions, it would seem more cost effective for Jeff just to replace counterfeits when he comes across them. As long as the person can show proof of purchase from anyone, just replace it and destroy the fake.

Cranston wrote: I totally agree this is a relatively small problem, although expensive to someone when it happens. Of all the suggestions, it would seem more cost effective for Jeff just to replace counterfeits when he comes across them. As long as the person can show proof of purchase from anyone, just replace it and destroy the fake.

How would he handle the ones that were traded for... or the cash purchases?

Just let the person use them?

Kaledor wrote:

Cranston wrote: I totally agree this is a relatively small problem, although expensive to someone when it happens. Of all the suggestions, it would seem more cost effective for Jeff just to replace counterfeits when he comes across them. As long as the person can show proof of purchase from anyone, just replace it and destroy the fake.

How would he handle the ones that were traded for... or the cash purchases?

Just let the person use them?

Just trade them. It would be good to get the name on the other end of the trade, so if the same name keeps coming up, but otherwise just trade the fake for actual. What are we talking 10-20 tokens per year, maybe?

Cranston wrote:

Kaledor wrote:

Cranston wrote: I totally agree this is a relatively small problem, although expensive to someone when it happens. Of all the suggestions, it would seem more cost effective for Jeff just to replace counterfeits when he comes across them. As long as the person can show proof of purchase from anyone, just replace it and destroy the fake.

How would he handle the ones that were traded for... or the cash purchases?

Just let the person use them?

Just trade them. It would be good to get the name on the other end of the trade, so if the same name keeps coming up, but otherwise just trade the fake for actual. What are we talking 10-20 tokens per year, maybe?

It's not a bad idea. Require proof of the origin, including the name. If the same person keeps ending up with fakes or selling/trading the fakes then talk to them and put the word out.

Serial numbers on Relic, Legendary, and Eldtrich items should work to stop the counterfeiting the there. However, I am going to suggest that the serial numbers be Alphanumeric: numbers 0-9 with capitalized A-Z.

Three digits: 46656 possible combinations
Four digits: 1,679,616 possible combinations
Five digits: 60,466,176 possible combinations

Then just use a random key/number generator to assign the serial numbers. It's pretty easy on that front. Since they are random and non-sequential the true length and breadth of the *valid* serial numbers will only ever be known to Jeff and any other TD staff he chooses. Simply store the valid serial numbers in an offline database, and as items are purchased simply enter the original owner. This protects all of us by making it near impossible to ever correctly guess a valid serial number even if a perfect forgery were possible.

I would also suggest a 5 (or more) digit serial number to allow for a wider range of valid and invalid serial numbers and to allow for future printings for very long span of years.

CrowOfPyke wrote: Serial numbers on Relic, Legendary, and Eldtrich items should work to stop the counterfeiting the there. However, I am going to suggest that the serial numbers be Alphanumeric: numbers 0-9 with capitalized A-Z.

Three digits: 46656 possible combinations
Four digits: 1,679,616 possible combinations
Five digits: 60,466,176 possible combinations

Then just use a random key/number generator to assign the serial numbers. It's pretty easy on that front. Since they are random and non-sequential the true length and breadth of the *valid* serial numbers will only ever be known to Jeff and any other TD staff he chooses. Simply store the valid serial numbers in an offline database, and as items are purchased simply enter the original owner. This protects all of us by making it near impossible to ever correctly guess a valid serial number even if a perfect forgery were possible.

I would also suggest a 5 (or more) digit serial number to allow for a wider range of valid and invalid serial numbers and to allow for future printings for very long span of years.

If this was ever considered remove l,Z,O,B,I,Q,S from the letter possibilities to avoid confusion with numbers (1,2,0,3,1,0,5).

Ed