TOPIC: Damage Dealt vs. Build Cost

Incognito wrote:
If you're willing to spend consumables, Wizards actually have a lot of really awesome defensive options.

Can you elaborate?

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: If you were min-maxing, why would you choose Wizard over the others?

Scrolls and spells have a significant advantage in time savings, especially compared to "unlimited melee/missile attacks." You can also choose to fail the skill test to speed things up even more.

Maybe in your dungeon - I'm sure you are on top of things.

My general experience in the dungeon is that spellcasting _substantially_ slows down combat, as most DMs seem unwilling to take their eyes off the combat sliders and process spellcasters in parallel. There are exceptions, I've had good DMs who say: "Sliders slide, spellcasters line up over here."

My more general experience is that I have to go stand by the DM, and clear my throat, and "ahem" and say "I'm casting a spell" while they stare longingly at the combat board, and turn their attention to me only after all, or several, pucks are done. I feel I see the the melee classes milling around waiting for the round to be concluded a lot more than I have seen spellcasters done waiting for pucks to finish.

I'm open to that perception being confirmation bias - I look forward to hearing what others feel - especially DMs.

Scrolls and spells let you entirely bypass/ignore the monster's AC, which is a significant advantage.

It would only be an advantage if the average damage dealt through bypassing the AC is higher than the average damage dealt by other classes that don't bypass it. Which I'm arguing it isn't.

I mean, I can see someone saying: "I'd rather have $1 than a 50% chance at $3." - as a matter of personal preference, and to each their own.

That being said, if those are your choices, the clear advantage is to take the 50/50 at $3 (assuming you will get enough chances for your numbers to approach "the long run," for example taking a 1/1000 chance to win $1001 is a higher expectation than $1, but in the dungeon, where you get maybe 16 rounds of combat, the $1 option every turn is probably preferable).

Sliding at +20 seems do to a pretty good job of bypassing monster AC as well .

I do agree that at the common token level Wizards are very powerful.

They have gained some ground at Rare, with the introduction of the 2 spell boosting items this year.

At UR+ it's off to the races with anywhere from +16 to +32 stackable onto STR, the spellcasters can't keep up.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't want to pick on Arcanist, but his post prompted me to think about it. He had mentioned a "Wizard Tax" for TrueGrind because the Wizard has to burn more consumables than other classes. Also we have seen discussions on which classes deal the most damage, etc. I was curious how the cost of the build is correlated to damage output and/or consumable use, broken down by class.

I calculated the "cost" by assuming $3500 for the Eldritch set, $1500 for a Legendary/CoA, $250 for an UR volunteer token or Relic, and $100 for a UR or rare volunteer token on Draco-Lich's Claw Charm. It's designed to be an approximation, not an exact number. Arcanist and I discussed via PM and he suggested this scheme (more or less) compared to using current market prices for every single token. Arguably we should adjust RoSP and SRoEC down to what it actually cost originally rather than its overall value now (I'm currently valuing the pair at $3500, but really you could value the pair at 11 URs plus some trade goods, or say $1500 for the pair which is what they cost if you collected all of it).

I wanted to use real-world builds which I originally looked in Matthew Hayward's great spreadsheet for, but I found in at least some cases it wasn't a very realistic build (like every class equipping the Legendary Fire Giant's Girdle). So I'd be interesting in collecting some other optimized but realistic builds and figuring out how the cost changes for different classes. If you want to post your build (or your ideal build) for the real world, ideally with colors by rarity, I'll update this post and add a table, etc.

I'm wondering if Matthew Hayward would be willing to run some of these builds through his DPS calculations?

Results so far (click left column for build):

Build	Total "Cost"	Dmg Only "Cost"
Kirk Ranger	$18,950	$11,100
Kirk Bard	$16,700	$5,050
Matthew Wizard	$10,850	$3,850
Arcanist Wizard	$10,450	$4,000
darkangel866 Ranger	$8,350	$5,200
Raven Rogue	$6,550	$1,900

It's worth noting that your "damage only" costs for the Wizard (and likely everyone) is off.

I have Relsa's ring, Drake's Staff and the Greater Ring which should be $3250 itself but that's not calculating in the Eldritch 2 piece used to bypass spell resistance. I'm burning a token slot in order to equip the SOREC, it's for a reason.

For Wizards, who have a high chance of being spell resisted, the 2 piece set is pretty necessary

Matthew Hayward wrote: My concern with Wizards (and Rogues) is that they have the worst resiliency

tokendb.com/token/scroll-blink/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-false-image/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-mage-armor/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-missilebane/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-stoneskin/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-mirror-image/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-swirling-shadows/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-vanish/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-blur/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-dark-aura/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-snakeskin/

You could also theoretically take advantage of the low AC by going for a Retribution damage build:

tokendb.com/token/scroll-fireshield/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-frostshield/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-avenging-asp/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-eelskin/

very bad at Utility

tokendb.com/token/scroll-keen-edge/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-mind-blank/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-stone-to-flesh/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-detect-illusion/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-feather-fall/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-gaze-reflection/

below average at Damage

Bear in mind that Wizards are easily the best class when it comes to dealing damage simultaneously to multiple monsters.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Scrolls and spells let you entirely bypass/ignore the monster's AC, which is a significant advantage.

It would only be an advantage if the average damage dealt through bypassing the AC is higher than the average damage dealt by other classes that don't bypass it. Which I'm arguing it isn't.

The first Smoak year, having a Wizard or two was very important in trying to destroy the Black Pearl Ioun Stone.

When the Chain Devil was encountered, it was immune to just about any weapon (you needed a +3 weapon to hurt it, and this was in 2010). Wizard spells were the key to killing it.

There have been several encounters with Stirges, where a Wizard's Burning Hands spell or Chain Lightning scroll have quickly ended the encounter.

I only play Nightmare and there have been plenty of times when monsters had such a high AC that most players could only hit it on a 20. Making Wizard spells that much more valuable. The first Minotaur we fought in 2010 was like that.

When I have a chance, I would be happy to share my builds for ranger, rogue, and druid. But they are non-legendary builds, but cheap because I do have eldritch items and relics. Might be interesting to see, as some equipment I have specifically chosen due to cost (ie I sold a mighty shortbow and mithral gauntlets and replace them with brute gloves, assassin crossbow, and a few hundred dollars).
I would suggest that not all URs are cost equal, some are actually closer to $75.

One last concern on the damage calculation: my druid is built for polymorph, only two combats get to use the coronet and the spells are only used if melee isn't allowed.

Matthew,

I'm not using market prices for URs, just $100ea. Even if you subtract the Eldritch set and one legendary from my ranger build it is still a larger investment than a wizard build.

I still think comparing real builds make sense. A wizard and a ranger are going to walk into grind with very different builds. Perhaps the wizard deals less damage and/or uses more consumables but they invested much less in their build.

I still think talking about max damage in the dungeon is pointless, any UR build is fine.

If we want to talk about max damage that matters then we should talk about Epic Grind. This is where non-damage spells and scrolls really matter. Also attacks against multiple monsters matter. I truly think the wizard shines here but is takes teamwork to keep him alive.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I still think talking about max damage in the dungeon is pointless, any UR build is fine.

If we want to talk about max damage that matters then we should talk about Epic Grind. This is where non-damage spells and scrolls really matter. Also attacks against multiple monsters matter. I truly think the wizard shines here but is takes teamwork to keep him alive.

Are scrolls really worth casting at the Epic Grind level before you run out of spells considering how much less damage they deal than even a level 0 spell?

For a point of reference, with scrolls you can do 15 to 1 target or 6 to all targets with the best scrolls. As of 2016, a level 0 spell does 32 damage (38 with MEC). Personally, I think of damage spells kind of like the numbers running around a weapon but the weapon has a limited number of uses before breaking for the year. Then being stuck with a flat 15 (12 if no monster is dead and in the room) to 1 target or 6 to all targets.

Kent's Ranger build (ranged build):

Rod of 7 Parts
Supreme Ring of Elemental Command

+2 Keen Slayer Bow
+3 Viper Strike Fang
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Charm of Avarice (if no greed = Draco-Lich Claw Charm)

Icecrag Hero Earcuff
Dragon Tooth Amulet
Ioun Stone Quicksilver Cube


+2 Viper Strike Fang
Sniper Spectacles
Cloak of Shadowskin
Shirt of the Underdark
Troll Hide Armor
Bracers of Supreme Archery
Gloves of Deflection
Viper Strike Belt
Boots of the West Wind
Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant
Ioun Stone Amethyst Ovoid
Quiver of Anointment
Figurine of Power: owl
Charm of Synergy
Charm of Brooching


Earcuff of the Wind
Ring of Iron Will
Ioun Stone Beryl Prism
Ioun Stone Iridescent spindle


Archer's Buckler
Cap of the Owl


Golden Apple of Eris

Kent's Druid Build (for wife/Cat):

Rod of 7 Parts
Supreme Ring of Elemental Command

Ring of Greater Focus
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
charm of avarice (if no greed = Draco-Lich Claw Charm)

Icecrag Hero earcuff
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere


+2 Scepter of Might
Coronet of the Arch-Druid
Lenses of Divine Sight
Stu-pendous pendant
cloak of shadowskin
druid's Wild vestments
dragonscale armor
bracers of fast fitness
Gloves of the brute
Boots of the North Wind
Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant
Charm of Synergy

Polymorph potions
+1 Sling
Earcuff of Understanding
Ioun Stone Beryl Prism
Ioun Stone Iridescent Spindle
charm of enlightenment

Vipron Shield

Kent's Rogue Build (for Stacey...ok, I cant actually equip all 3 at once, I only have 2 supreme rings, but my wife only plays half as often as Stacey and I, so this is the preferred build):

Rod of 7 Parts
Supreme Ring of Elemental Command (sub in Ring of Frost if not available)

Greater Cloak of Destiny
Girdle of Frost Giant Strength
Charm of Avarice (if no greed = Draco-Lich Claw Charm)

Ring of Heroism
Icecrag Hero Earcuff
Medallion of Greyhawk
Shirt of Shielding
Ioun Stone Onyx Cube
Ioun Stone Onyx Sphere

Nightshade's +2 Short Sword
+2 Assassin's Crossbow
Orb of Might
Lenses of Vital Insight
Cloak of Shadowskin
Bracers of Fast Fitness
Mithral Gauntlets
Boots of the underdark
Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant
Charm of Brooching
Charm of Synergy
Ektdar's tool
libram of looting


Hat of Escape
Earcuff of the Wind
Ioun Stone Beryl Prism
Ioun Stone Iridescent Spindle


Drow Death Armor
Masterwork Thieves Tools