TOPIC: Damage Dealt vs. Build Cost

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

If we want to talk about max damage that matters then we should talk about Epic Grind. This is where non-damage spells and scrolls really matter. Also attacks against multiple monsters matter. I truly think the wizard shines here but is takes teamwork to keep him alive.

Are scrolls really worth casting at the Epic Grind level before you run out of spells considering how much less damage they deal than even a level 0 spell?

For a point of reference, with scrolls you can do 15 to 1 target or 6 to all targets with the best scrolls. As of 2016, a level 0 spell does 32 damage (38 with MEC). Personally, I think of damage spells kind of like the numbers running around a weapon but the weapon has a limited number of uses before breaking for the year. Then being stuck with a flat 15 (12 if no monster is dead and in the room) to 1 target or 6 to all targets.

Yes, definitely, because not all monsters are the same and the earlier monsters are easier.

There may be times when you are better off using scrolls against the easier monsters and saving your bigger spells for harder monsters.

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: If you were min-maxing, why would you choose Wizard over the others?

Scrolls and spells have a significant advantage in time savings, especially compared to "unlimited melee/missile attacks." You can also choose to fail the skill test to speed things up even more.

Scrolls and spells let you entirely bypass/ignore the monster's AC, which is a significant advantage.

If you're willing to spend consumables, Wizards actually have a lot of really awesome defensive options.

When are you finding the time to cast defensive spells and scrolls? Are you sacrificing rounds of combat that could be used attacking?

Incognito wrote: Bear in mind that Wizards are easily the best class when it comes to dealing damage simultaneously to multiple monsters.

Definitely! Sadly, outside of Grind this seems to be 1 room out of 28 each year. My Wizard was exceedingly useful for killing spider egg sacks.

Incognito wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

If we want to talk about max damage that matters then we should talk about Epic Grind. This is where non-damage spells and scrolls really matter. Also attacks against multiple monsters matter. I truly think the wizard shines here but is takes teamwork to keep him alive.

Are scrolls really worth casting at the Epic Grind level before you run out of spells considering how much less damage they deal than even a level 0 spell?

For a point of reference, with scrolls you can do 15 to 1 target or 6 to all targets with the best scrolls. As of 2016, a level 0 spell does 32 damage (38 with MEC). Personally, I think of damage spells kind of like the numbers running around a weapon but the weapon has a limited number of uses before breaking for the year. Then being stuck with a flat 15 (12 if no monster is dead and in the room) to 1 target or 6 to all targets.

Yes, definitely, because not all monsters are the same and the earlier monsters are easier.

There may be times when you are better off using scrolls against the easier monsters and saving your bigger spells for harder monsters.

Strategy is very important in the higher levels of Grind. For instance, some critters are much more susceptible to certain damage types and scrolls can help with that flexibility. Bards that are doing their job should help point out weaknesses.

Unfortunately, while a Wizard can be very flexible by using scrolls in Grind, it presents 3 challenges.
1. Having scrolls from many different years. Even someone around for 5 years at this point would be unlikely to have some of those earlier tokens Incognito listed.
2. Having a good sense of what to use when. Comes with experience, but memory and the excitement of combat can be factors.
3. Time to cast all those scrolls. Do you buff yourself? A teammate? Debuff the opponent? Do damage? While the Wizards potential utility is very high, there is also a steep opportunity cost to counter it.
Well, and staying alive to use them. Dead Wizards don't cast (much).

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: My concern with Wizards (and Rogues) is that they have the worst resiliency

tokendb.com/token/scroll-blink/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-false-image/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-mage-armor/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-missilebane/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-stoneskin/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-mirror-image/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-swirling-shadows/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-vanish/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-blur/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-dark-aura/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-snakeskin/

You could also theoretically take advantage of the low AC by going for a Retribution damage build:

tokendb.com/token/scroll-fireshield/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-frostshield/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-avenging-asp/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-eelskin/

My opinions:

The single room AC boosters are garbage - hugely disadvantageous to take a round of action to reduce liklyhood of monster hitting you by 5-15%, should you be targeted (and presuming the monster is not already hitting you at a -3). Even so, that allows you to expend actions to stack up to still less AC than everyone but maybe the Rogue (everyone else has more DEX and/or way better AC than +3).

Scroll Mage Armor would still leave Wizards with the worst class AC, and can't be had for love or money (I've looked). Maybe should be reprinted.

Stoneskin and The False Image / 50% miss chance scrolls are fine, I'll admit.

Scroll Vanish is not usable - you should just do whatever you'll do next round this round.

With regard to retribution, thanks, that gave me a chuckle.

Trying to take the lowest AC and HP and turn it into an advantage by spending a full action rounds and consumable items to deal ~6 damage to a monster that happens to hit the caster in melee is the most suicidally bad strategy I can imagine. Just cast Scroll Frost Spear or something.

very bad at Utility

tokendb.com/token/scroll-keen-edge/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-mind-blank/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-stone-to-flesh/

tokendb.com/token/scroll-detect-illusion/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-feather-fall/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-gaze-reflection/

6 tokens, only one of which has been printed since 2010 doth not a high utility player make.

In my definition of utility healing is included. So, I guess I'd concede that Wizards are above average, the Utility list probably looks like:

Bard
Cleric
Druid
Paladin (guard in every room)
Wizards (single room utility spells on card, scroll)
Everyone else in some order

I could even see Wizards moved above Paladin.

below average at Damage

Bear in mind that Wizards are easily the best class when it comes to dealing damage simultaneously to multiple monsters.

Relevant in Grind primarily - I think this has come up only a few times in the last 4 non-grind dungeons. (Once in the room with the Sand Beast and the Assassin, and 0.5 times in the Skeleton Sarcophagus room which was more of a puzzle, but mass damage did something at least).

Maybe it mattered in the Drow Crossbow room this year? I was explicitly told Burning Hands didn't impact more than one target, but on another run I used Stone Storm and I think it hit the Drow and 1 egg sack.

Certainly Lightning Storm/Burning Hands did not damage the entire swarm fighting the airship whenever that was (1 or 2 years ago)?

But yes, I'll concede wizards are best at this.

Do you contest that Wizards have lower expected damage output than appropriately equipped Barbarian, Fighter, Dwarf Fighter, Monk, and Ranger (and maybe Paladin) at token gearing levels above common/uncommon?

Also keep in mind that every calculation of high damage Wizards are basically counting the damage output of 2 characters, the Wizard, and whatever character is pumping 10 life into them a turn due to MeC.

Matthew Hayward wrote: The single room AC boosters are garbage - hugely disadvantageous to take a round of action to reduce liklyhood of monster hitting you by 5-15%, should you be targeted (and presuming the monster is not already hitting you at a -3). Even so, that allows you to expend actions to stack up to still less AC than everyone but maybe the Rogue (everyone else has more DEX and/or way better AC than +3).

Maybe you should be selecting your teammates better? Find some glass cannon Barbarians, Monks, and Rangers. Equip a couple of AC tokens and you can easily surpass them in the AC department!

Also, be best friends with the Paladin so he can guard you.

Scroll Mage Armor would still leave Wizards with the worst class AC, and can't be had for love or money (I've looked). Maybe should be reprinted.

Stoneskin and The False Image / 50% miss chance scrolls are fine, I'll admit.

While a lot of the "caster only" defensive scrolls are of limited use to just the Wizard, they become exponentially better when twinned with the Gloves of the Cabal.

This gives new meaning to "utility" for the Wizard, when he can grant Stoneskin to two players, False Image to himself and someone else, etc.

Scroll Vanish is not usable - you should just do whatever you'll do next round this round.

It could be used if you have a free action (like with the new Lenses).

Heck, if you have enough scrolls, you can solo adventures now - equip with the Lenses of Sage Reading. Every turn, use a damage scroll followed by a Vanish scroll. Monster can NEVER target you!

With regard to retribution, thanks, that gave me a chuckle.

It gets a bit better with the Gloves of the Cabal. You can give the retribution damage to the Paladin or taunting Dwarf.

Trying to take the lowest AC and HP and turn it into an advantage by spending a full action rounds and consumable items to deal ~6 damage to a monster that happens to hit the caster in melee is the most suicidally bad strategy I can imagine. Just cast Scroll Frost Spear or something.

Well, the retribution damage strategy was somewhat viable against Smoak (due to the Dragonbane Surcoat)!

In my definition of utility healing is included. So, I guess I'd concede that Wizards are above average, the Utility list probably looks like:

Well, Wizards can heal themselves with:

tokendb.com/token/wand-of-life-stealing/

And other utility options include:

tokendb.com/token/fey-wand/
tokendb.com/token/wand-of-slow/
tokendb.com/token/wand-of-tentacles/

And I previously mentioned the applications of the Gloves of the Cabal.

Do you contest that Wizards have lower expected damage output than appropriately equipped Barbarian, Fighter, Dwarf Fighter, Monk, and Ranger (and maybe Paladin) at token gearing levels above common/uncommon?

Eh. I wouldn't touch the "damage output" discussion with a 10 foot pole. So no comment (one way or another).

Incognito wrote: While a lot of the "caster only" defensive scrolls are of limited use to just the Wizard, they become exponentially better when twinned with the Gloves of the Cabal.

This gives new meaning to "utility" for the Wizard, when he can grant Stoneskin to two players, False Image to himself and someone else, etc.

I hadn't considered that - that is pretty good. How many parties do you see with Gloves of the Cabal equipped on the Cleric, Druid, Bard, and both Wizards so that this could be possible? I would imagine that is exceptionally rare - so rare in fact it may not have happened even once last year.

In 2016 it seems like the Lenses might make this viable in another way.

Scroll Vanish is not usable - you should just do whatever you'll do next round this round.

It could be used if you have a free action (like with the new Lenses).


Heck, if you have enough scrolls, you can solo adventures now - equip with the Lenses of Sage Reading. Every turn, use a damage scroll followed by a Vanish scroll. Monster can NEVER target you!

OK - that is very good - even I will admit it .

Trying to take the lowest AC and HP and turn it into an advantage by spending a full action rounds and consumable items to deal ~6 damage to a monster that happens to hit the caster in melee is the most suicidally bad strategy I can imagine. Just cast Scroll Frost Spear or something.

Well, the retribution damage strategy was somewhat viable against Smoak (due to the Dragonbane Surcoat)!

Maybe I should take it more seriously. Smoak killed the hell out of us.

In my definition of utility healing is included. So, I guess I'd concede that Wizards are above average, the Utility list probably looks like:

Well, Wizards can heal themselves with:

tokendb.com/token/wand-of-life-stealing/

I was of the impression that monsters at Hardcore+ usually have saves at 11+, so this wand does nothing 95% of the time at those difficulties? Am I wrong about typical monster saves?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote: While a lot of the "caster only" defensive scrolls are of limited use to just the Wizard, they become exponentially better when twinned with the Gloves of the Cabal.

This gives new meaning to "utility" for the Wizard, when he can grant Stoneskin to two players, False Image to himself and someone else, etc.

I hadn't considered that - that is pretty good.

And you call yourself a Wizard!

How many parties do you see with Gloves of the Cabal equipped on the Cleric, Druid, Bard, and both Wizards so that this could be possible? I would imagine that is exceptionally rare - so rare in fact it may not have happened even once last year.

I don't think it actually happens very often but it wouldn't be that hard.

Firstly, a lot of the top players simply choose not to use the Cabal set. For example a fair number of Wizards have Cabal items, they simply wear something else in the dungeon.

Secondly, if you actually wanted to go down this route, it would be relatively easy forming a group ("Cabal Team") for runs. Just like how people coordinate with Synergy runs, etc. Just get a Cleric, Druid, Bard, and two Wizards who want to form their own Cabal. (And there are enough Cabal items floating around you could probably borrow them for the run).

Scroll Vanish is not usable - you should just do whatever you'll do next round this round.

It could be used if you have a free action (like with the new Lenses).

Heck, if you have enough scrolls, you can solo adventures now - equip with the Lenses of Sage Reading. Every turn, use a damage scroll followed by a Vanish scroll. Monster can NEVER target you!

OK - that is very good - even I will admit it .

Well, that's why you should be careful about discounting something as "useless."

All it takes it one new item, with an unanticipated interaction, to make something suddenly very strong.

As I've mentioned a few times before, the Charm of Spell Swapping was pretty terrible (weak, and unpopular) for the first few years it came out. It was only with the Lenses of Divine Sight did it suddenly experience a major upswell in power.

You also see this a lot in CCG's, where a card is initially terrible. And then a new card gets introduced which suddenly makes that first card significantly better.

Trying to take the lowest AC and HP and turn it into an advantage by spending a full action rounds and consumable items to deal ~6 damage to a monster that happens to hit the caster in melee is the most suicidally bad strategy I can imagine. Just cast Scroll Frost Spear or something.

Well, the retribution damage strategy was somewhat viable against Smoak (due to the Dragonbane Surcoat)!

Maybe I should take it more seriously. Smoak killed the hell out of us.

It was especially helpful since Smoak's Black Pearl and Magic Resistance meant that most attacks and spells did minimal damage.

Retribution damage was actually fairly reliable! Especially since the "egg" mechanic guaranteed at least one targeted hit against a player of your choice.

In my definition of utility healing is included. So, I guess I'd concede that Wizards are above average, the Utility list probably looks like:

Well, Wizards can heal themselves with:

tokendb.com/token/wand-of-life-stealing/

I was of the impression that monsters at Hardcore+ usually have saves at 11+, so this wand does nothing 95% of the time at those difficulties? Am I wrong about typical monster saves?

Yeah, but you can give them up to -6 with:

tokendb.com/token/fey-wand/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-color-spray/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-hypnotic-pattern/

Yes, it does take actions to use these but the monster gets no save against the save penalties.

Incognito wrote:

In my definition of utility healing is included. So, I guess I'd concede that Wizards are above average, the Utility list probably looks like:

Well, Wizards can heal themselves with:

tokendb.com/token/wand-of-life-stealing/

I was of the impression that monsters at Hardcore+ usually have saves at 11+, so this wand does nothing 95% of the time at those difficulties? Am I wrong about typical monster saves?

Yeah, but you can give them up to -6 with:

tokendb.com/token/fey-wand/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-color-spray/
tokendb.com/token/scroll-hypnotic-pattern/

Yes, it does take actions to use these but the monster gets no save against the save penalties.

So, at hardcore+ they have saves of 11 or more, you give them -6, so now at the cost of a mere 4 rounds of combat you are dealing 6 damage to the monster and healing 6 damage every time they fail to roll a 6 or better. So 3 rounds doing nothing, then a consistent heal 6 and damage 6 with a 25% success rate. I feel like that isn't actually good?

Anthony Barnstable wrote: So, at hardcore+ they have saves of 11 or more, you give them -6, so now at the cost of a mere 4 rounds of combat you are dealing 6 damage to the monster and healing 6 damage every time they fail to roll a 6 or better. So 3 rounds doing nothing, then a consistent heal 6 and damage 6 with a 25% success rate. I feel like that isn't actually good?

Uh, I see it more like "your team spends their first round to prep"

Bard: Uses Shield of the Scholar to cast Color Spray
Elf Wizard: Uses Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard: Uses Fey Wand

And then you start using all your saving throw spells on Round 2.

Not to different than warriors builds that spend several rounds whittling down monster AC with the Sundering Cestus, and then shifting gears to something else!

Incognito wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote: So, at hardcore+ they have saves of 11 or more, you give them -6, so now at the cost of a mere 4 rounds of combat you are dealing 6 damage to the monster and healing 6 damage every time they fail to roll a 6 or better. So 3 rounds doing nothing, then a consistent heal 6 and damage 6 with a 25% success rate. I feel like that isn't actually good?

Uh, I see it more like "your team spends their first round to prep"

Bard: Uses Shield of the Scholar to cast Color Spray
Elf Wizard: Uses Hypnotic Pattern
Wizard: Uses Fey Wand

And then you start using all your saving throw spells on Round 2.

Not to different than warriors builds that spend several rounds whittling down monster AC with the Sundering Cestus, and then shifting gears to something else!

That's what I was going to say!