TOPIC: True Dungeon Character Generators (App)

Feedback Part 2

I tried to set up and use the spells mentioned in the useful post "Good Sequences to Save". Specificallly,

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Generally

Quicken, Sharpen, Conserve Ray of Shock + Magic Missile (or another level 1 spell)
One with one without MEC

Quicken Fireball, Fireball

Quicken, Sharpen, Conserve, Fork Ray of Shock + Magic Missile (or another level 1 spell)
One with one without MEC

First, it did allow me to set up the five sequences as listed. (Two versions with and without MEC)
1. Quicken, Sharpen, Conserve Ray of Shock + Magic Missile (or another level 1 spell)
One with one without MEC

I was allowed to set up both sequences and they both executed correctly. Again, I did need to exit Virtual TD and go back in to test both, since I can't advance the room in the Default mode, everything I test is treated as one room. Everything looks good, but again, I get one total damage for the two spells. There is no indication as to whether or not Sharpen worked. I'd kind of have to just "know" that based on the total being higher than expected.

Also, if I wanted to direct the total damage to two different monsters, how would I do that? The math is getting quite complicated. I would have to understand each spells damage with and without MEC and with and without getting the skill check right. And what if I got a crit with Sharpen? I'd then have to manually tell the DM how to apply the spells to each of the monsters.

I'm also wondering how this would work in those instances where the room is split into (For example) 4A and 4B. What if monster A is vulnerable to shock and takes 5 extra damage from shock? I may not know that. What if I cast the sequence while on the 4B screen, but then tell the DM to apply the shock damage to Monster A? Will the DM know to increase the damage by the appropriate amount? I know these are "edge" cases, but they do happen.

2. Quicken Fireball, Fireball

First, the app did let me create this sequence. However, since I only have one Fireball spell, this is technically not legal as is. The app correctly would not let me cast this sequence. What I really need to do is either Quicken and Conserve the first Fireball or Cast No Mark the second Fireball using the Crown of Expertise. If I do either, this does work correctly.

3. Quicken, Sharpen, Conserve, Fork Ray of Shock + Magic Missile (or another level 1 spell)
One with one without MEC

Again, I could only set up both of these by exiting Sequencing between them and then going back in. Once set up, both sequences are working correctly.

After that, I generally have the same comments that I had with the first sequence. I have no clear idea that Sharpen worked. Although, when I test this, my build had bonus damage of 31 and when I executed the sequence it came back with total damage of 158. I can only assume I hit the Crit on Sharpen.

The only additional comment relates specifically to Fork. Again, unless the results indicate that the spells was Forked, I have to remember to tell that to the DM and I have to be able to tell him how much of this damage applies to the second monster (i.e. subtract out any damage from the Magic Missile). Splitting up damage does become an issue. If there were 3 or more monsters in the room, I could have Forked the Ray of Shock to Monsters 1 and 2 and then applied the Magic Missile to Monster 3. I'm not even sure how spell vulnerabilities will be applied unless all monsters in the room have the same vulnerabilities.

As for cast 3 Fireballs in a sequence using Quicken, Cabal Set/Charm or Ring of Spell Storing and Crown of Expertise. That appears to work correctly. But it does just give a Total of 60 and should probably specify that the 60 applies to All and then the pool (93 in this case) can be divided as the player wishes.

BTW - Please take all of my feedback in the spirit intended. I think the app is awesome and wonderfully solves for so many things. I'm not even sure anymore what we would do without it. I'm very spoiled because of it.

Having said all of that, my feedback is just intended to point out areas that may create some confusion and should probably be considered for future updates. There are very few areas where it's just flat out doesn't work.

Hi Dave and Cranston,

I do not play Wizard but my friend Spud does. I have been reading all of your posts and of the other contributors and would like to express a thank you from all the TD players and especially those who do play Wizard. I am trying to understand the Wizard more and appreciate all of the testing and sequence set-ups that are being done. Thank you for working to eliminate problems before they happen. Kudo's to both of you and all the other contributors that trouble shoot and help us understand more about spell casting. Your efforts are to be commended by all because this will speed up combat for the group.

Dave wrote: Here was the rest of my testing for this afternoon.
I worked with an Elf Wizard and included the following items in my build.
Head - Crown of Expertise
Neck - Ashenne's Arch-Mage Medallion
Wrist - Bracelets of the Cabal
Hands - Gloves of the Cabal
Melee Weapon - +2 Staff of Power
Right Ring - Ring of Expertise
Charm - Charm of the Cabal
Charm - Charm of Spell Storing
Charm - Charm of Spell Swapping

I then programmed the following sequences.
1 Quicken-Acid Splash, Acid Splash
2 Quicken-Fireball-Conserve, Shocking Grasp
3 Quicken-Ray of Shock-Sharpen-Conserve
4 Magic Missile -MEC-Fork
5 Quicken-Fireball, Fireball-NoM, Fireball-NoM
6 Magic Missile, Cab-Magic Missile
7 Quicken-Acid Ray-MEC-Alter to Fire-Fork-Sharpen-Conserve, Acid Ray
8 Quicken-Magic Missile, Cab-Magic Missile, Magic Missile
9 Quicken-Acid Splash, Shocking Grasp-NoM, Magic Missile
10 Quicken-Fireball-Conserve, Cab-Fireball

Methodology - I had one build where I set all 10 sequences and then tried to play with them individually (or together if appropriate). In between Virtual TD sessions I would Go to Epilogue, Go to another character build, then open the Elf Wizard build, select done and then reopen another Virtual TD session. This was just to make sure I was starting from scratch each time.
I had a second cloned Elf Wizard build (the sequences do not clone). In that build I would program only one sequence at a time to try it with the same sequences outlined above.

Results
- When I go into Virtual TD with the first build, only the first 4 sequences show as active. Not entirely sure why this is, although, as will be reviewed below, only one other sequence beyond the first 4 can be executed, even though all of them are valid.
- Sequence 1 executes properly. I am presented with 2 skill checks. Total damage is displayed. But that assumes that all damage is going to the same target. If more than one monster was in the room, I might have directed the two spells at different targets. After executing, only sequence 4 is still active.
- Sequence 2 executes properly. This time it shows 1 damage total for the Shocking Grasp + Base Damage of the Fireball and then displays a pool total for the Fireball bonus damage. The issue here is that the Fireball does base damage of 20 to all monsters. The Shocking Grasp must be allocated as a total to a single target, but then the rest of the pool can go anywhere. The damage is really 20 (All) Shocking Grasp (Total) Bonus (Pool).
- Sequence 3 executed as expected. No issues other than other sequences no longer active (except #4)
- Sequence 4 executed as expected. First 3 sequences still active afterwards.
- Sequence 5 not active. It should be acceptable based on Crown of Expertise, Charm of Spell Storing and Quicken. In general, no sequence that included 3 spells was executable.
- Sequence 6 not active, but the Cabal set is equipped. In general, no sequence that included the Cabal Set was executable. I tried using it with 3 spells, 2 spells and even a single spell.
- Sequence 7 not active as sequence 7, even if I clear the 6 sequences prior to it. However, if I built this same combination as sequence 1, it worked as expected.
- Sequence 8 not active. Should work with Quicken, Cabal Set Free Action and normal casting of spell
- Sequence 9 not active. Again, should work with Quicken, Charm of Spell Storing and normal casting of spell. No combination of 3 spells seemed to work. Although, you were allowed to set them up as a sequence.
- Sequence 10 not active. Again, I tried reducing this to a single free action spell and it still would not show as active.
- The sequencing does not appear to work in conjunction with sacrificing a spell. For example. I set up a simple sequence Quicken-Magic Missile, Magic Missile.
i then went into virtual TD. I cast a Magic Missile in round 1. I cast another Magic Missile in round 2. I only have 1 Magic Missile left, so in round 3 I sacrificed Bull's Strength so that I could swap it into another Magic Missile. The sequence was not active (was earlier), because it thought I only had 1 magic missile left.

Also, while playing around and clearing out sequences. For the character that had 10 sequences, i clear the first 9. It would not let me set a new sequence 1 until I also cleared sequence 10.

Other than that, i played with setting bardsong, turning bardsong off, turning on songbird of necklace. Nothing there impacted whether or not the sequences worked. I just had to make sure I didn't swipe away the Virtual TD popup box, or all of the sequences became inactive.

in summary, this is really, really, great when it works. Big step in the right direction. Still quite a few limitations.

Feedback #3
I've reprogrammed all of the sequences I tested the first time and retested them.
In general, all sequences were allowed and all appeared active when I went into Virtual TD. Contrary to what I stated last time (my error), sequence 10 is not valid and should not have been allowed to be set up or executed. It was. Conserve and Cabal Set both use a free action and cannot both be used in the same round. Let that be a lesson to all. Even I screw up wizards once in a while.
Sequence 1 - Works as expected. No issues.
Sequence 2 - Works as expected. No issue per se, but the same general comment I've already made. Results that display can be confusing. In this case I get Total = 57, Pool=31, Other=20. I can see that the "Other" is how your handling "All", but it should probably say "All". And again, what if the "Total" needs to be split between two monsters. I'll comment in general on this later.
Sequence 3 - Works as expected. No issues.
Sequence 4 - Works as expected. No issues.
Sequence 5 - Works as expected. No issues other than, again, how totals are reported.
Sequence 6 - Works as expected. No issues.
Sequence 7 - Works as expected. No issues other than result reporting.
Sequence 8 - Works as expected. No issues.
Sequence 9 - Works as expected. No issues. In particular, I noted that once I used this sequence, other sequences that used the Cabal Set were grayed out. Nicely done. Cabal set can only be used once per room.
Sequence 10 - Should not have been allowed in set up or execution. Was allowed in both. That'll teach you for trusting me.
Added a new sequence to another build
Sequence 11 - Ray of Shock-MEC-Boost - When I executed this it gave me a total of 67 (Base + MEC + Bonus). It should only have given me the base plus MEC, which I could then use to Boost another players damage. The bonus damage is irrelevant when I use Boost.


General Comments
- Sequences that involve sacrificing a spell due to spell swapping must still be done manually. I suppose I could set up a sequence that includes "Cast No Mark" under the assumption that I swapped a spell. That might help, but the actual sacrifice would still need to be manual.
- The display of damage results needs some work. I understand the "real estate" on the dice roller screen is at a premium, but currently I think the displayed results will create some confusion and slow down combat when the wizard has to explain to the DM what he (she) really did and how it should really be applied.
In a perfect world, each spell cast would produce its own results.
AoE spells should display X (All) and Y (Pool)
Single Target Spells should display X (Total). If the spell was Sharpened, there should be indicator as to whether or not it was a CRIT. If the spell was forked, Fork should be displayed to allow allocation to a 2nd monster.
Trying to combine spell damage, no matter how you do it, is going to create situations that require further explanation.

Anyway, in general, this is still very very awesome. Thank you.

To use Sacrifice with a Spell Sequence, you need to set at least one of the spells in the sequence to be Cast No Mark. Next the Spell Sacrifice has to be done manually, but the app records that a sacrifice is available, and will use that as the 2nd option (Mage Power Conserve is the first option).

Note that Spell Storing includes casting without marking, and automatically sets that switch when Spell Storing is selected when setting up the sequence.

If you plan to use multiple single target spells on different creatures, I recommend you use the normal casting interface. You only need to do one related to the Dice Roller, and then run a second spell for other creatures.

Displays where Fireball's or similar AoE spells are included, the top line is the total target damage total. Pool damage is next, but there is also a total for 'Other' creatures at the bottom of the display. On phones you may need to scroll down to see it, but it is there.

Cranston wrote: To use Sacrifice with a Spell Sequence, you need to set at least one of the spells in the sequence to be Cast No Mark. Next the Spell Sacrifice has to be done manually, but the app records that a sacrifice is available, and will use that as the 2nd option (Mage Power Conserve is the first option).

I figured that would likely be the answer. in testing this approach appeared to work well. I set two sequences
1. Quicken-Ray of Shock-Conserve, Ray of Shock
2. Ray of Shock-Ring/Charm of SS, Ray of Shock-Cast No Mark (assumes use of Crown of Expertise)

I was just testing to see how many Ray of Shock's I could cast. The app let me execute both of the above sequences. I then sacrificed Ironskln and I was allowed to Cast No Mark another Ray of Shock. I then sacrificed Fireball and was allowed to cast another Ray of Shock. I assumed that the Cleric restored my Ray of Shock and was allowed to Cast No Mark another one. I then assumed another Restore Spell from Cleric and could Cast No Mark another one. I think it let me do another one, but at that point I think I was comfortable it would let me continue to cast the spell.

If you plan to use multiple single target spells on different creatures, I recommend you use the normal casting interface. You only need to do one related to the Dice Roller, and then run a second spell for other creatures.

This averages about one room per dungeon. I always figured there would be situations that we would need to resort to some manual adjustments. The dungeons can get pretty creative and I would never assume that you can program ahead of time for everything Jeff might throw at us.

Displays where Fireball's or similar AoE spells are included, the top line is the total target damage total. Pool damage is next, but there is also a total for 'Other' creatures at the bottom of the display. On phones you may need to scroll down to see it, but it is there.

So this is just a matter of getting used to different verbiage, "Other" instead of "All".

BTW - I've probably run through 100+ skill checks while testing and that piece seems to be working just fine. I'm certain I've seen every image multiple times.

Skill checks are probably still the weak link in terms of slowing down wizard combat. For experienced wizards its only a matter of a few seconds while they scroll through the list looking for the answer. But those wizards are rarely going to get any skill checks incorrect in the first place. For inexperienced wizards, it could be slower as they scroll slowly through the list trying to jog their memory. possibly going through the list more than once. Just a thought.

Dave wrote: BTW - Please take all of my feedback in the spirit intended. I think the app is awesome and wonderfully solves for so many things. I'm not even sure anymore what we would do without it. I'm very spoiled because of it.

Having said all of that, my feedback is just intended to point out areas that may create some confusion and should probably be considered for future updates. There are very few areas where it's just flat out doesn't work.

I want to thank you for all the excellent input! I appreciate the time you put into testing, and I very much appreciate the detailed descriptions of issues. It is a lot easier to deal with, when the full setup is provided. It makes it much easier to recreate the issue in a debugger, and figure out a solution.

Cranston wrote:

Dave wrote: BTW - Please take all of my feedback in the spirit intended. I think the app is awesome and wonderfully solves for so many things. I'm not even sure anymore what we would do without it. I'm very spoiled because of it.

Having said all of that, my feedback is just intended to point out areas that may create some confusion and should probably be considered for future updates. There are very few areas where it's just flat out doesn't work.

I want to thank you for all the excellent input! I appreciate the time you put into testing, and I very much appreciate the detailed descriptions of issues. It is a lot easier to deal with, when the full setup is provided. It makes it much easier to recreate the issue in a debugger, and figure out a solution.

You're very welcome. It's a pleasure to help out in any way I can. I know there are probably several others who could provide just as good feedback. The advantage I have is that I'm retired and don't have that pesky thing called a job getting in the way.

V 9.2.2 for IOS and 9.2.3 for Android have been released. These should be the final versions for V9 this month

1. Updated the Creature File
2. Modified some wording on Spell Sequencing output
3. Corrected a couple bugs with Spell Sequencing on Android
4. Corrected a problem on Android with Spell Bonuses and Heal Bonuses.

Thanks so much for your work on this. Overall, this is outstanding and I look forward to using it during VTD9.

At this point, i'll refrain from any feedback until I actually use it in live play.

I don't see Ravager Large Shield on the list of equipable items in ranged offhand.

Ravager Large Shield (2022 Rare token) is incorrectly listed as Ravager Shield (Rare). Additionally, it does not show up at all in the Ranged off hand slot.

Can this be corrected?