TOPIC: PSA; Garkguard Greaves / Shin Slot Token Rarity

I had about 50 pulls and didn't get any greaves, but was able to pick one up on the secondary market pretty easily.

Well, near as I can tell, I am the only person who is against these being treasure pull only (TPO) tokens, Sure, its only one slot now but I really dislike the president that this sets. I already have a hard time trying to get folks to give TD a try (to date not one of my friends will even try it) but this is going to make it just that much harder.

As for getting a pair of the greaves, Binia and Joshua both stepped up and said that they would trade me one of their extras. I got Binia's message first but would like to thank both of them. When I said that I couldn't find any for sale, I have two go-to-guys that I look at before looking at others. Those two are TD Tavern (Kirk) and MasterEd. At the time that I looked (a day or two after GenCon), neither of them had them listed. I do a TON of business with TD Tavern. If they don't even have it listed... well.. that's a bad sign. I have never had an issue with TD Tavern or MasterEd's prices but when neither of them has them listed... time to wait awhile. Likely a long while.

I know that using the secondary market probably doesn't seem like a big deal and I get that, I really do. I just wish that if the rare version is TPO, then maybe we could have a common and/or uncommon in the boosters. But to say that this entire slot can be filled only by TPO just doesn't seem fair to me. Among other things one of the things that I used to stress to new players was to worry about filling all the slots before they worried about upgrading existing slots. Now I will have to add a disclaimer that shins are TPO and to ignore that slot until they figure out the secondary markets. Sure, $8 for one now isn't that bad. However, 4 or 5 years from now when they are harder to find that price will likely go way up unless the power creep is actually sprinting on that slot.

Hershel wrote: Well, near as I can tell, I am the only person who is against these being treasure pull only (TPO) tokens, Sure, its only one slot now but I really dislike the president that this sets. I already have a hard time trying to get folks to give TD a try (to date not one of my friends will even try it) but this is going to make it just that much harder.

Why would a 'tpo' make it harder for you to get friends to play? I can understand maybe wanting to spend money on tokens but to play doesn't make sense to me.

There are currently something like 30 slots to fill, not counting those from extenders, and slotless tokens (like pouches, Scroll Tubes, Teeth, segments, etc). A fully equipped character can be wearing upwards of 50 (or more) tokens.

Even if shins remain TPO, that’s just one out of thirty, or fifty.

Note Teeth, Orbs, and Segments aren’t even in treasure boxes. At least, not in meaningful quantities. They aren’t in random packs, either, unless you count buying $8k at a time as being “in packs.”

Let’s say you do. For precedent, the Alchemist Pouch in 2007 was “Dungeon-only.” Greaves aren’t the first token unavailable by buying tokens.

tokendb.com/token/alchemist-pouch/

My 2 cents.

Hershel wrote: Well, near as I can tell, I am the only person who is against these being treasure pull only (TPO) tokens, Sure, its only one slot now but I really dislike the president that this sets. I already have a hard time trying to get folks to give TD a try (to date not one of my friends will even try it) but this is going to make it just that much harder.

jedibcg wrote: Why would a 'tpo' make it harder for you to get friends to play? I can understand maybe wanting to spend money on tokens but to play doesn't make sense to me.

I'm going to echo jedibcg. I could understand how a TPO slot might sway individuals away from inve$ting more in TD. However, if TPO slots exacerbate your efforts to convince folks - might I suggest your pitch focus on: great puzzles, immersive environments, and the live RPG?

Hershel wrote: I just wish that if the rare version is TPO, then maybe we could have a common and/or uncommon in the boosters.

I like your idea to have rare greaves as TPO, with common uncommon ones available in boosters.

Hershel wrote: Among other things one of the things that I used to stress to new players was to worry about filling all the slots before they worried about upgrading existing slots. Now I will have to add a disclaimer that shins are TPO and to ignore that slot until they figure out the secondary markets.

I disagree with your opinion here. As a very new player myself (3 runs), I received the "fill all slots first" advice. While it's a decent rule-of-thumb / pearl-of-wisdom to pass to new players, I do not agree with it for two reasons.

1. Not all slots are equal. 2a. The effects on some tokens are just lousy. 2b. static buff effects are much more effective for a new player than triggered ones.

It is my opinion that you don't need to have a shin-disclaimer. You can tell players to focus on other high-value slots and items within their budget that are going to deliver the most impact. I believe very strongly that quality of tokens equipped > sheer quantity of tokens equipped. The greaves are not going to make or break any player's build, especially the ones we have right now.

Hershel wrote: Sure, $8 for one now isn't that bad. However, 4 or 5 years from now when they are harder to find that price will likely go way up unless the power creep is actually sprinting on that slot.

Supply and demand. If Jeff decides to print zero tokens to occupy the shin slot for the next 4-5 seasons, you are right. We'll just have to wait and see.

ArnoldD wrote: My 2 cents.

Hershel wrote: Among other things one of the things that I used to stress to new players was to worry about filling all the slots before they worried about upgrading existing slots. Now I will have to add a disclaimer that shins are TPO and to ignore that slot until they figure out the secondary markets.

I disagree with your opinion here. As a very new player myself (3 runs), I received the "fill all slots first" advice. While it's a decent rule-of-thumb / pearl-of-wisdom to pass to new players, I do not agree with it for two reasons...

I agree with your reasons, but I give people that advice, in this context:

A +2 UR melee weapon will cost you about a hundred.
You can achieve the same effect with two rares: a +1 weapon, and Gauntlets of Ogre Power. Add Belt of Ogre Power, and you have the effect of a $300 relic for a total of way under $20. So, putting rares in three slots is cheaper, by a lot, and the equivalent of buying a relic and leaving those two slots empty.

So I’m of the opinion that all three of us are right, depending on how you look at it.

I’m not a newbie, but I don’t like conditional tokens either because I forget I have them, and a bonus I forget to claim is the same as no bonus at all.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I’m not a newbie, but I don’t like conditional tokens either because I forget I have them, and a bonus I forget to claim is the same as no bonus at all.

^^ Very much what Brad said.

There's a number of decent tokens I own which I don't equip because they're conditional and I'll forget I have them. A Rare "+1 to saves" is preferable to an UR "Immune to Psychic Blast and Imbues Psychic power."

Yeah if you're looking at upgrades a single UR is ~$100, but you could instead fill every slot with Rares & Uncommons for less than that. And you would have a much stronger build. Maybe only half of those tokens would affect stats on the party card but you are still way better off. So that's why that general advice is given.

I agree though, tokens that are recorded on the party card (or HP on your class card), are usually much stronger than ones that are not. With a few exceptions, of course, such as Cloak of Shadowskin or Lenses of Divine Sight.

You'll get no argument from me on those points. What I really had in mind is a player who's made his or her very first run. If the 10-pack he or she opened had some basic armor and/or weapons, the player would benefit much more upgrading to a rare +1 weapon & a decent set of armor than filling out some of the other slots.

Same idea with triggered effects. If the boots you opened are conditional, something like Boots of Agility might benefit the character more than an earcuff.

Hershel wrote: Sure, $8 for one now isn't that bad. However, 4 or 5 years from now when they are harder to find that price will likely go way up unless the power creep is actually sprinting on that slot.

My understanding is that we'll likely have a new Greaves token in the treasure boxes each year. If that happens it won't be *if* you have one, but rather which one you have. And if so there will probably consistently be options for <$5 on the secondary market.

Just my thoughts, assuming we get a new one each year.

(it is possible in my mind that some years we could see UC ones, or even a UR one eventually)

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Hershel wrote: Sure, $8 for one now isn't that bad. However, 4 or 5 years from now when they are harder to find that price will likely go way up unless the power creep is actually sprinting on that slot.

My understanding is that we'll likely have a new Greaves token in the treasure boxes each year. If that happens it won't be *if* you have one, but rather which one you have. And if so there will probably consistently be options for <$5 on the secondary market.

Just my thoughts, assuming we get a new one each year.

(it is possible in my mind that some years we could see UC ones, or even a UR one eventually)

Even if we didn't get new ones for a few years but had the same ones in the treasure box (I think this is unlikely) that would also cause the price to drop. I will give Hershel one point. If there are no new ones and these are the only ones we get for 4 to 5 years then yes the price is likely to creep up. I however don't think either of those are going to happen.

Hershel wrote: Well, near as I can tell, I am the only person who is against these being treasure pull only (TPO) tokens, Sure, its only one slot now but I really dislike the president that this sets. I already have a hard time trying to get folks to give TD a try (to date not one of my friends will even try it) but this is going to make it just that much harder.

As for getting a pair of the greaves, Binia and Joshua both stepped up and said that they would trade me one of their extras. I got Binia's message first but would like to thank both of them. When I said that I couldn't find any for sale, I have two go-to-guys that I look at before looking at others. Those two are TD Tavern (Kirk) and MasterEd. At the time that I looked (a day or two after GenCon), neither of them had them listed. I do a TON of business with TD Tavern. If they don't even have it listed... well.. that's a bad sign. I have never had an issue with TD Tavern or MasterEd's prices but when neither of them has them listed... time to wait awhile. Likely a long while.

I know that using the secondary market probably doesn't seem like a big deal and I get that, I really do. I just wish that if the rare version is TPO, then maybe we could have a common and/or uncommon in the boosters. But to say that this entire slot can be filled only by TPO just doesn't seem fair to me. Among other things one of the things that I used to stress to new players was to worry about filling all the slots before they worried about upgrading existing slots. Now I will have to add a disclaimer that shins are TPO and to ignore that slot until they figure out the secondary markets. Sure, $8 for one now isn't that bad. However, 4 or 5 years from now when they are harder to find that price will likely go way up unless the power creep is actually sprinting on that slot.

From a Sales guy - It sounds like you're making it sound tooooooo difficult for your friends to want to try. Just tell them how much fun it is. Newbies shouldn't be worried about filling every slot. The game isn't designed that way. With only one pack of 10 tokens most newbies should be happy filling 50% of their slots with lots of trading around the table. Just on their own, I say 10% is a good number. Don't get too bogged down in details.

All the rest about TPO then just kinda disappears.