TOPIC: Increasing number of low value URs

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

To me, it feels like the difference between common and uncommon is small, uncommon and rare is small, rare and ultra rare is small, ultra rare and relic is large, and relic and legendary is very large. I think a big problem is how close together several of those levels are and that the largest gulf is between relic and legendary when this feels like the least important gulf to have. Up the power level of ultra rares and maybe relics without changing anything else and then there is more desirability to stepwise grow from the rare build to UR before jumping to relic/legendary. Also, maybe the timeless recipes should make more use of “any weapon UR”, “any 2 handed UR”, “any shirt UR”. If the recipe is timeless, eliminate the need for a timed year specific token and move to any year tokens to give value back to URs. It would also be nice if more recipes move towards Widseths, where there is an option to use extra URs in place of a timed relic from one specific year (maybe use like 4 any year URs of some minor restriction in place of 1 relic).

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

To me, it feels like the difference between common and uncommon is small, uncommon and rare is small, rare and ultra rare is small, ultra rare and relic is large, and relic and legendary is very large. I think a big problem is how close together several of those levels are and that the largest gulf is between relic and legendary when this feels like the least important gulf to have. Up the power level of ultra rares and maybe relics without changing anything else and then there is more desirability to stepwise grow from the rare build to UR before jumping to relic/legendary. Also, maybe the timeless recipes should make more use of “any weapon UR”, “any 2 handed UR”, “any shirt UR”. If the recipe is timeless, eliminate the need for a timed year specific token and move to any year tokens to give value back to URs. It would also be nice if more recipes move towards Widseths, where there is an option to use extra URs in place of a timed relic from one specific year (maybe use like 4 any year URs of some minor restriction in place of 1 relic).

Now that the Omni tokens will allow people to replace URs in recipes, it doesn't make a lot of sense to specify specific URs anymore. I'd be onboard if all Relic and Legendary recipes just referenced generic "any UR weapon", "any UR boots", etc. That would help set a value floor under some of these URs and give them a purpose again. I do think that needs to be limited to URs from sets and maybe volunteer tokens, so as to exclude tokens like the Turkey Leg.

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

To me, it feels like the difference between common and uncommon is small, uncommon and rare is small, rare and ultra rare is small, ultra rare and relic is large, and relic and legendary is very large. I think a big problem is how close together several of those levels are and that the largest gulf is between relic and legendary when this feels like the least important gulf to have. Up the power level of ultra rares and maybe relics without changing anything else and then there is more desirability to stepwise grow from the rare build to UR before jumping to relic/legendary. Also, maybe the timeless recipes should make more use of “any weapon UR”, “any 2 handed UR”, “any shirt UR”. If the recipe is timeless, eliminate the need for a timed year specific token and move to any year tokens to give value back to URs. It would also be nice if more recipes move towards Widseths, where there is an option to use extra URs in place of a timed relic from one specific year (maybe use like 4 any year URs of some minor restriction in place of 1 relic).

Now that the Omni tokens will allow people to replace URs in recipes, it doesn't make a lot of sense to specify specific URs anymore. I'd be onboard if all Relic and Legendary recipes just referenced generic "any UR weapon", "any UR boots", etc. That would help set a value floor under some of these URs and give them a purpose again. I do think that needs to be limited to URs from sets and maybe volunteer tokens, so as to exclude tokens like the Turkey Leg.

Not sure if you saw the post, but Druegar posted that the UR Omni Tokens would cost a lot more than the specific UR's that are part of the transmute recipe's. Same goes for the Omni Relic's.

Rob F wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Here are my guesses as to what is contributing:

1. Increased supply: Huge numbers of full treasure runs taking place since the advent of VTD compared to normal.

2. Massive power creep at Legendary, and to a lesser extent relic, I think pushes things to where the best optimization points are rare level builds and legendary level builds. In ye-olden-days a legendary token got you +4 to STR over a UR, for example (Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength vs Girdle of Hill Giant Strength)

Now Viv's Amulet of Noble Might, for example, gives you:
+8 to STR
Add shield AC to reflex saves
Melee weapons crit on 19-20
Double strike (deal damage to a 2nd creature in melee if it's close enough)
Power Attack (select a number from 0-10, and then deduct that number from your melee to-hit bonus and add it to your melee damage bonus)
When compared with UR Medallion of the Sweeetwoods

The distance between UR and legendary is much, much more than the distance between common and UR for a lot of tokens nowadays.

3. General availability of Relic/Legendaries in numerous slots. Let's consider how things were back in 2018, the year before we started in on class legendries.

In the 7 years between 2012-2018 there were:
* 19 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relics
* 21 Relics

In the 5 years since we've added:
* 20 legendaries
* 1 Grand Eldrtich
* 2 Eldritch Relic
* 24 Relics

4. UR level tokens printed as completion, and now Stalker level tokens. Belt of the Brave is the most obvious example, but there are plenty more. By my estimation, any of these could have been URs: Belt of the Leopard, Goggles of Anticipation, Ioun Stone Ruby Orb, Ioun Stone Ruby Pyramid, Ioun Stone Ruby Spindle, Bead of the Deeper Ones, Charm of the Kraken, Figurine of Power: Parrot, Ioun Stone Kraken Coral Orb, Bead of the Dire Bear, Charm of Targeting, Charm of the Wind, Earcuff of Enlightenment, Ioun Stone Jasper Ellipsoid, Bead Cleric's Piety, Boots of Inferno Step, Horn of Rally, Ring of Pandemonium, Soul Coffer, Brawler's Horn, and about 6 of the Stalker items.

#4 is a really good point. Mass quantities of completion tokens and tokens like Stalker Tokens that are as good or better than URs really tank the demand and value of those URs. Ideally I'd like for all of those to be less powerful than a UR, but that hasn't been the case.

I do recognize how difficult it is for Jeff to create so many participation/Stalker/etc tokens and not have them infringe on the UR space. He (and the players) want them to be special and better than a standard rare token. The gap between Rares and URs is often very small, so it's very difficult for Jeff I'm sure to create tokens better than a Rare but not as good as a UR.

To me, it feels like the difference between common and uncommon is small, uncommon and rare is small, rare and ultra rare is small, ultra rare and relic is large, and relic and legendary is very large. I think a big problem is how close together several of those levels are and that the largest gulf is between relic and legendary when this feels like the least important gulf to have. Up the power level of ultra rares and maybe relics without changing anything else and then there is more desirability to stepwise grow from the rare build to UR before jumping to relic/legendary. Also, maybe the timeless recipes should make more use of “any weapon UR”, “any 2 handed UR”, “any shirt UR”. If the recipe is timeless, eliminate the need for a timed year specific token and move to any year tokens to give value back to URs. It would also be nice if more recipes move towards Widseths, where there is an option to use extra URs in place of a timed relic from one specific year (maybe use like 4 any year URs of some minor restriction in place of 1 relic).

Now that the Omni tokens will allow people to replace URs in recipes, it doesn't make a lot of sense to specify specific URs anymore. I'd be onboard if all Relic and Legendary recipes just referenced generic "any UR weapon", "any UR boots", etc. That would help set a value floor under some of these URs and give them a purpose again. I do think that needs to be limited to URs from sets and maybe volunteer tokens, so as to exclude tokens like the Turkey Leg.

Not sure if you saw the post, but Druegar posted that the UR Omni Tokens would cost a lot more than the specific UR's that are part of the transmute recipe's. Same goes for the Omni Relic's.

I did see a post that it would cost more, I missed the post that said it would cost a lot more. Maybe combine the two approaches, require a specific UR plus an "any" one.

The cost could just be any UR plus a number of trade goods. That would still make it more expensive than the vast majority of URs.

Ultimately, the number of auctions has combined with power creep of new tokens has driven prices down. We’re seeing likely 30+ auctions per year and there just isn’t that much demand. Combine that with UR’s drawn in treasure and extras from patron orders and there just won’t be a large enough market. The following year, the prior year tokens go further down in price.

The math is getting to where actual patron orders for one’s own use is more expensive than the secondary market unless you draw a GT. I’m seriously considering just buying an onyx set plus 10-20 URs for transmutes on the secondary market plus trade goods and it will likely come in well under $7K, possibly as low s $6K. Even further, just buy the transmutes on the secondary market and skip the transmute step (almost certainly less expensive.)

A sink for URs would help increase UR values.