TOPIC: my experience... not good

bpsymington wrote: Bard lore says "some adventurers soak themselves in water before attacking a salamander to negate the heat damage from its body."

Fire resistance did reduce/prevent heat aura damage. Soaking yourself in the spring would prevent heat aura damage, but not the fire damage from the attack - the weapon did both piercing and fire damage. Fire resistance would affect the fire damage, not the piercing damage.

Cool (literally!)

Thanks, Brian : )

bpsymington wrote:

Raven wrote:

bpsymington wrote: Plus, you could take a round to soak in the pool, and you would then be immune to the heat aura damage.

I was wondering what the pool was for!!

I tried to investigate the pool, but the DM just said "It's what it looks like: a pool of water."
Then I spent a round & trying to splash some on the creature, and the DM said it evaporated/did nothing. So I ignored it as decoration and continued attacking with melee.

Kinda wish there had been some indication that it "felt cooling on the skin" or "your blisters seem to diminish after dipping your hands in the water."

If I may ask, Did many groups figure out the trick with the pool? Was there some sort of Bardic Lore clue?

Bard lore says "some adventurers soak themselves in water before attacking a salamander to negate the heat damage from its body."

Fire resistance did reduce/prevent heat aura damage. Soaking yourself in the spring would prevent heat aura damage, but not the fire damage from the attack - the weapon did both piercing and fire damage. Fire resistance would affect the fire damage, not the piercing damage.

I agree - the DM should have given some kind of indication about the cooling affect of the water if you checked it. Very few groups tried that, though, instead trying to deal as much damage as possible as fast as possible (AMDAPAFAP).

With our bard, we figured it out. I tossed out some shurikens while most of the melee bathed, then I bathed while the rest of the melee stepped up, to keep flow of damage going.

CrowOfPyke wrote:

Garrison wrote:

Ro-gan wrote: Years ago I would have agreed with the complaint that why are Tokens being made to offer resistance this and resistance that if they can never be used because Jeff neutered them in the Dungeon. But, sadly, this is nothing new and has been going on for years. When I saw the Lava Walking Boots I never once thought of equipping them. I knew they wouldn't be useful for one reason or another.

This is a major reason why my token purchases went from over $1,000 two years ago, to only $100 this year, to zilch from here on out.

Doesn't surprise me. And I agree with Ro-gan, I don't bother with "clever" items anymore because they are all negated and worthless anyway. And it's this kind of thing that can leave a VERY bad taste in people's mouths about TD and why some people just walk away never to return.

Stop punishing players for being clever and using the tokens you print!!

I have to agree that the Lava boots being almost worthless in the lava walking room was a mistake... I see why people are frustrated that their powers are being negated in the Dungeon on what feels like an arrogant whim.. Not saying that is what it is but that is how it feels. My two cents..I know..I am a newb...

bpsymington wrote: The Boots of Lava Walking were not useless - if you crossed the lava river in them, or stepped off a stone, you took half damage.

At the cost of the treasure token.

Is there anyone who'd rather lose a token than take that damage? Because short of leading to death without a recovery item in the group, I can't imagine making that trade.

"Lava Walking Boots: take half damage from one room, lose a treasure token."

Not exactly blowing my hair back.

Edit: Now, here's a thought; if they had simply counted against the number of 'failures', a group could feasibly both solve the puzzle normally and still use a pair of boots or two.

That said, I remain unenthusiastic about having limited attempts on normal (people new to the game and without much gear should be encouraged to use trial and error to explore the bounds of the game), but gear negating the treasure outright remains awfully harsh. My friend only had those boots from his 10 pack, he literally had nothing else for the slot, and in that regard it was utterly worthless until a few attempts lost us the treasure anyway.

Forar wrote:

bpsymington wrote: The Boots of Lava Walking were not useless - if you crossed the lava river in them, or stepped off a stone, you took half damage.

At the cost of the treasure token.

...

My friend only had those boots from his 10 pack, he literally had nothing else for the slot, and in that regard it was utterly worthless until a few attempts lost us the treasure anyway.

The top part of my response here is not about the particular Lava Boots issue, which I think is problematic, but rather to give some context around the apparent expectation that tokens with game text should be useful in the dungeon. I'm not trying to say how anyone should feel, just to give a way to interpret game text on tokens that seems in accordance with True Dungeon's design principles.

It is a very normal part of true dungeon to have tokens that end up not mattering - especially at the common level.

Consider these 2015 tokens, whose game text, as far as I am aware (and I certainly could be wrong!), did absolutely nothing in the 2015 dungeon:

tokendb.com/token/alchemist-purse/ - No potion destroying effects
tokendb.com/token/belt-of-climbing/ - No climbing activities
tokendb.com/token/charm-of-cleansing/ - No liquid, non-magical poisons
tokendb.com/token/charm-of-sweet-air/ - No volcanic fumes
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-alarm/ - No sneak attacks against players
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-blessed-silk/ - No natural insects or arachnids (Maybe the spider sacks in the Sable Gauntlet crossbow wielding drow room were natural?)
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-the-bat/ - No falling
tokendb.com/token/cowl-of-darkness/ - No benefit from concealing your face
tokendb.com/token/drow-assassin-armor/ - Armor works but no magical darkness
tokendb.com/token/drow-commander-armor/ - Armor works but no magical silence
tokendb.com/token/gloves-of-rope-climbing/ - Still no climbing activities
tokendb.com/token/helm-of-dark-visage/ - No gaze attacks
tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-the-raider/ - No temporary blindness caused by sudden natural light
tokendb.com/token/potion-spiderfoot/ - No place where slips and falls mattered (although I wonder if in the lava puzzle room this would have allowed you to not slip off a stone in game if you actually, physically missed it in real life)
tokendb.com/token/shield-of-refraction/ - Still no sudden bright light effects
tokendb.com/token/shoes-of-spiderfoot/ - Still no slips and falls

So - what should we take away from that? Here is how I interpret it:

1. 
   True Dungeon makes 120 distinct common, uncommon, and rare tokens each year.
   To avoid having extremely repetitive tokens (+3 to AC torso armor, +1 to damage d6 1 handed edged weapon, etc.) every year, tokens frequently get some game text.


2. 
   The game text is primarily there to establish mood, set the scene, etc., for instance:
   
   • 2014 - Dungeons were Gnomish airship, desert and snake temple themed, and the following tokens whose in game effects did nothing were printed (incomplete list for illustration purposes):
     
     • tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-the-navigator/ - No clouds or smoke
     • tokendb.com/token/ring-of-quenching/ - No dehydration
     • tokendb.com/token/sandstorm-goggles/ - No sandstorm
     • tokendb.com/token/shoes-of-sand-walking/ - No penalties caused by sandy ground
     
     
     
   • 2013 - Dungeons were Gnomish workshop and Werewolf themed, the following 2013 tokens whose in game effects did nothing were printed:
     
     
     • tokendb.com/token/boots-of-traction/ - No slipping and falling effects on natural surfaces
     • tokendb.com/token/bracelets-of-the-tinkerer/ - No magical magnetic effects
     • tokendb.com/token/earcuff-of-the-vale/ - No chance to read or speak Fey
     • tokendb.com/token/tinkerers-gloves/ - No non-magical hot or cold objects of relevance
     
     

So - while one could argue all those effects ought to have been useful in the dungeon, that is simply not how True Dungeon is. We can fight it, or we can accept that lots of token abilities are there purely for flavor / role play purposes and have no in game relevant effect.

I think this may be intentional in True Dungeon design, as players start off with few tokens, and if they come back over a few years get the fun of filling out their character with stuff in lots of slots, and slowly learning over 3-4 years which types of tokens and effects seem to matter. This offers players a sort of "progression." All this may be entirely accidental, but it's certainly added a lot of enjoyment to the game for my playgroup and myself.


With regard to the lava boots being the only thing someone with a 10 pack could equip on their feet, this is utterly unsurprising - although I understand as new players it is baffling.

In the 13 years of tokens, there have only ever been 20 boot tokens printed at common, uncommon, and rare combined (6 of which were reprints). Boots are very rare / unusual items in True Dungeon - most players won't have any boots at all.

Overall there are around 25 "slots" for players to equip items true dungeon - most players will enter the dungeon with most slots unequipped - players starting with a token 10 pack will enter the dungeon with a large majority of slots unequipped - there is no shame in that / problem with that, but if players have the expectation that they will get gear for every slot, or even have multiple choices / options for every slot they are going to have a bad time.

• 5x Ioun Stone
• Hat
• Lenses
• Neck
• Back
• Shirt
• Torso
• Wrists
• Gloves
• Melee main hand
• Melee off hand
• Ranged main hand
• Ranged off hand
• 2x Rings
• Waist
• Boots
• 3x Charm
• 1-2x Figurine

Now - finally - I can empathize that:

• If I got Boots of Lava Walking
• And I wore them
• And there was a room with a river of lava
• And I walked across that river of lava
• And I was penalized for walking across a river of lava while wearing my G*D D**M BOOTS OF LAVA WALKING

I would also have had a bad time .

Matthew Hayward gets a cookie!
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/Cookie_of_Gratitude.png [/img]

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Forar wrote:

bpsymington wrote: The Boots of Lava Walking were not useless - if you crossed the lava river in them, or stepped off a stone, you took half damage.

At the cost of the treasure token.

...

My friend only had those boots from his 10 pack, he literally had nothing else for the slot, and in that regard it was utterly worthless until a few attempts lost us the treasure anyway.

The top part of my response here is not about the particular Lava Boots issue, which I think is problematic, but rather to give some context around the apparent expectation that tokens with game text should be useful in the dungeon. I'm not trying to say how anyone should feel, just to give a way to interpret game text on tokens that seems in accordance with True Dungeon's design principles.

It is a very normal part of true dungeon to have tokens that end up not mattering - especially at the common level.

Consider these 2015 tokens, whose game text, as far as I am aware (and I certainly could be wrong!), did absolutely nothing in the 2015 dungeon:

tokendb.com/token/alchemist-purse/ - No potion destroying effects
tokendb.com/token/belt-of-climbing/ - No climbing activities
tokendb.com/token/charm-of-cleansing/ - No liquid, non-magical poisons
tokendb.com/token/charm-of-sweet-air/ - No volcanic fumes
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-alarm/ - No sneak attacks against players
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-blessed-silk/ - No natural insects or arachnids (Maybe the spider sacks in the Sable Gauntlet crossbow wielding drow room were natural?)
tokendb.com/token/cloak-of-the-bat/ - No falling
tokendb.com/token/cowl-of-darkness/ - No benefit from concealing your face
tokendb.com/token/drow-assassin-armor/ - Armor works but no magical darkness
tokendb.com/token/drow-commander-armor/ - Armor works but no magical silence
tokendb.com/token/gloves-of-rope-climbing/ - Still no climbing activities
tokendb.com/token/helm-of-dark-visage/ - No gaze attacks
tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-the-raider/ - No temporary blindness caused by sudden natural light
tokendb.com/token/potion-spiderfoot/ - No place where slips and falls mattered (although I wonder if in the lava puzzle room this would have allowed you to not slip off a stone in game if you actually, physically missed it in real life)
tokendb.com/token/shield-of-refraction/ - Still no sudden bright light effects
tokendb.com/token/shoes-of-spiderfoot/ - Still no slips and falls

So - what should we take away from that? Here is how I interpret it:

1. 
   True Dungeon makes 120 distinct common, uncommon, and rare tokens each year.
   To avoid having extremely repetitive tokens (+3 to AC torso armor, +1 to damage d6 1 handed edged weapon, etc.) every year, tokens frequently get some game text.


2. 
   The game text is primarily there to establish mood, set the scene, etc., for instance:
   
   • 2014 - Dungeons were Gnomish airship, desert and snake temple themed, and the following tokens whose in game effects did nothing were printed (incomplete list for illustration purposes):
     
     • tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-the-navigator/ - No clouds or smoke
     • tokendb.com/token/ring-of-quenching/ - No dehydration
     • tokendb.com/token/sandstorm-goggles/ - No sandstorm
     • tokendb.com/token/shoes-of-sand-walking/ - No penalties caused by sandy ground
     
     
     
   • 2013 - Dungeons were Gnomish workshop and Werewolf themed, the following 2013 tokens whose in game effects did nothing were printed:
     
     
     • tokendb.com/token/boots-of-traction/ - No slipping and falling effects on natural surfaces
     • tokendb.com/token/bracelets-of-the-tinkerer/ - No magical magnetic effects
     • tokendb.com/token/earcuff-of-the-vale/ - No chance to read or speak Fey
     • tokendb.com/token/tinkerers-gloves/ - No non-magical hot or cold objects of relevance
     
     

So - while one could argue all those effects ought to have been useful in the dungeon, that is simply not how True Dungeon is. We can fight it, or we can accept that lots of token abilities are there purely for flavor / role play purposes and have no in game relevant effect.

I think this may be intentional in True Dungeon design, as players start off with few tokens, and if they come back over a few years get the fun of filling out their character with stuff in lots of slots, and slowly learning over 3-4 years which types of tokens and effects seem to matter. This offers players a sort of "progression." All this may be entirely accidental, but it's certainly added a lot of enjoyment to the game for my playgroup and myself.


With regard to the lava boots being the only thing someone with a 10 pack could equip on their feet, this is utterly unsurprising - although I understand as new players it is baffling.

In the 13 years of tokens, there have only ever been 20 boot tokens printed at common, uncommon, and rare combined (6 of which were reprints). Boots are very rare / unusual items in True Dungeon - most players won't have any boots at all.

Overall there are around 25 "slots" for players to equip items true dungeon - most players will enter the dungeon with most slots unequipped - players starting with a token 10 pack will enter the dungeon with a large majority of slots unequipped - there is no shame in that / problem with that, but if players have the expectation that they will get gear for every slot, or even have multiple choices / options for every slot they are going to have a bad time.

• 5x Ioun Stone
• Hat
• Lenses
• Neck
• Back
• Shirt
• Torso
• Wrists
• Gloves
• Melee main hand
• Melee off hand
• Ranged main hand
• Ranged off hand
• 2x Rings
• Waist
• Boots
• 3x Charm
• 1-2x Figurine

Now - finally - I can empathize that:

• If I got Boots of Lava Walking
• And I wore them
• And there was a room with a river of lava
• And I walked across that river of lava
• And I was penalized for walking across a river of lava while wearing my G*D D**M BOOTS OF LAVA WALKING

I would also have had a bad time .

You weren't penalized for walking across the lava. They reduced the damage caused by the lava.

You would be "penalized" if you failed to solve the puzzle, or had too many mistakes, if by "penalized" you mean "lost a treasure stamp."

Matthew Hayward wrote: Now - finally - I can empathize that:

• If I got Boots of Lava Walking
• And I wore them
• And there was a room with a river of lava
• And I walked across that river of lava
• And I was penalized for walking across a river of lava while wearing my G*D D**M BOOTS OF LAVA WALKING

I would also have had a bad time .

Druegar wrote: Matthew Hayward gets a cookie!
[img size=200,200] www.dantasyland.com/td/Cookie_of_Gratitude.png [/img]

That was probably the best post I've read on this subject.
If I ever stumble across a cookie, I want you to give it to Matt instead, that is how much I cracked up reading this post

Matthew Hayward wrote: I can empathize that:

• If I got Boots of Lava Walking
• And I wore them
• And there was a room with a river of lava
• And I walked across that river of lava
• And I was penalized for walking across a river of lava while wearing my G*D D**M BOOTS OF LAVA WALKING

I would also have had a bad time .

If I was unclear; no, I don't expect every single token to be useful in that year. There is indeed something fascinating about how tokens from years past might suddenly prove vital or powerful beyond their previous uses based either on a new room/trap/puzzle, or simply through player ingenuity.

It's the combination of "lava walking boots" and "room with lava on it" and "btw using the boots costs you the treasure token, fyi" that I find excessive.

Allow the person to take reduced damage and start over without counting as a 'failure'? Awesome. Counting as a 'failure' but at reduced or no damage' as a manner of saving time if the end is nigh? Great. Not counting against the player at all because they're using a pair of boots that is otherwise apparently worthless in that slot? I'm good with that on Normal at least, if more experience players want to make statements on Hardcore or Nightmare, I'm interested in hearing them (the 'Nightmare is not for the faint of heart' approach a lot of players seem to have works for me).

To reiterate; no, not every token needs to always be useful everywhere. It is a set challenge, not improv theater.

But specifically this example, and in general the notion of tokens with clear situational uses and having a punishment attached to that usage seems strange.

But then I revel in creative problem solving. If someone in my D&D group arranged an ingenious MacGyver/Rube Goldberg manner of solving a puzzle using a 10 foot pole, a Mage Hand spell, two blank scrolls, a thick silver necklace, thirty four tent spikes, and a ham sandwich (with pesto Aoili specifically), I think I'd relish their outside the box thinking and at least be inclined to give it a shot.

"Using lava walking boots on a lava room" isn't even that much of a stretch.

bpsymington wrote: You weren't penalized for walking across the lava. They reduced the damage caused by the lava.

You would be "penalized" if you failed to solve the puzzle, or had too many mistakes, if by "penalized" you mean "lost a treasure stamp."

*sigh*

The treasure tokens are a reward.

Being told "if you use this item, you lose the token flat out" is a penalty.

Ergo, players are penalized for using the boots.

Taking 3 damage instead of 6 except losing the treasure token is such a non-compromise as to be laughable.

Hell, I'd volunteer to take *extra* damage if it didn't mean losing the token.

Maybe for players getting 10 or 15 tokens regardless it isn't a big deal. For a new player, getting 2 tokens instead of 3 (or in my group's case, 1 token) at the end is a considerably bigger deal.

Edit: perhaps it wasn't conveyed clearly to my group, but we were informed that *using* the boots lost us the treasure. If the module was written with the intention of them reducing damage but still allowing the person to continue or start over without further issue, that was not expressed to us.

That said, I still think that at least on Normal, even using them to get a person or two across (especially if damage it taken) shouldn't be that big a deal. Being well prepared (especially with minimal resources on hand) shouldn't be a 'failure', but then I'm not convinced that 'brute forcing' an answer is that big a deal either.

If the party wants to drop a bunch of tokens worth of healing just to get past a puzzle that they're struggling with, so be it. Dis-incentivize the behaviour with increased 'trial and error damage', not 'sorry no token for you'.

Forar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I can empathize that:

• If I got Boots of Lava Walking
• And I wore them
• And there was a room with a river of lava
• And I walked across that river of lava
• And I was penalized for walking across a river of lava while wearing my G*D D**M BOOTS OF LAVA WALKING

I would also have had a bad time .

If I was unclear; no, I don't expect every single token to be useful in that year. There is indeed something fascinating about how tokens from years past might suddenly prove vital or powerful beyond their previous uses based either on a new room/trap/puzzle, or simply through player ingenuity.

It's the combination of "lava walking boots" and "room with lava on it" and "btw using the boots costs you the treasure token, fyi" that I find excessive.

Allow the person to take reduced damage and start over without counting as a 'failure'? Awesome. Counting as a 'failure' but at reduced or no damage' as a manner of saving time if the end is nigh? Great. Not counting against the player at all because they're using a pair of boots that is otherwise apparently worthless in that slot? I'm good with that on Normal at least, if more experience players want to make statements on Hardcore or Nightmare, I'm interested in hearing them (the 'Nightmare is not for the faint of heart' approach a lot of players seem to have works for me).

To reiterate; no, not every token needs to always be useful everywhere. It is a set challenge, not improv theater.

But specifically this example, and in general the notion of tokens with clear situational uses and having a punishment attached to that usage seems strange.

But then I revel in creative problem solving. If someone in my D&D group arranged an ingenious MacGyver/Rube Goldberg manner of solving a puzzle using a 10 foot pole, a Mage Hand spell, two blank scrolls, a thick silver necklace, thirty four tent spikes, and a ham sandwich (with pesto Aoili specifically), I think I'd relish their outside the box thinking and at least be inclined to give it a shot.

"Using lava walking boots on a lava room" isn't even that much of a stretch.

bpsymington wrote: You weren't penalized for walking across the lava. They reduced the damage caused by the lava.

You would be "penalized" if you failed to solve the puzzle, or had too many mistakes, if by "penalized" you mean "lost a treasure stamp."

*sigh*

The treasure tokens are a reward.

Being told "if you use this item, you lose the token flat out" is a penalty.

Ergo, players are penalized for using the boots.

Taking 3 damage instead of 6 except losing the treasure token is such a non-compromise as to be laughable.

Hell, I'd volunteer to take *extra* damage if it didn't mean losing the token.

Maybe for players getting 10 or 15 tokens regardless it isn't a big deal. For a new player, getting 2 tokens instead of 3 (or in my group's case, 1 token) at the end is a considerably bigger deal.

You didn't lose the token flat-out if you used the boots. It was lost if MORE than one person did not cross the lava river via the puzzle solution method. Just clarifying.

TPTB are hearing these concerns regarding solving the puzzles and treasure stamps and are taking them into consideration. The lava room has definitely and understandably caused some bad feelings, especially for newer players who are 1. more likely to be wearing those boots and 2. more likely to only be getting tokens from stamps, so losing a stamp is more significant for them.

Forar wrote: If the party wants to drop a bunch of tokens worth of healing just to get past a puzzle that they're struggling with, so be it. Dis-incentivize the behaviour with increased 'trial and error damage', not 'sorry no token for you'.

I'm a big fan of this kind of approach. Less work for everyone.

The Spider/Spelling room is a great example of this. One of the runs I did through gauntlet was a random assortment of new players, none of them even knew it was a treasure room, let alone that you weren't supposed to 'just guess'. To them the idea was that you wanted to find you way out before time ran out. [Which might have more to do with the emphasis on time stressed in training.]

That being said, after multiple 'slap' attempts on the 'just' daemon causing damage to the Barbarian, and then anyone NOT in the web ... random attempts suddenly stopped.

I'm in agreement that a 'brute force' solution to a puzzle can quickly be halted by damage for incorrect 'guesses'. If someone wants to burn a bunch of healing to overcome that .. well .. that too is a solution.

"With a scream of frustration, the Barbarian grits his teeth, and continually pounds his bare skull against the solid oak door. While causing extensive head trauma to himself, he eventually cracks the oak. This exposes an opening that allows the Rogue to reach through and unlock the door from the other side. The party then debated as to if the Cleric should heal the vast idiot, or if his early life in the wilds would prove enough to just 'shake it off' and continue.'

bpsymington wrote: You didn't lose the token flat-out if you used the boots. It was lost if MORE than one person did not cross the lava river via the puzzle solution method. Just clarifying.

Just FYI, my group running this on normal was also told if any of used boots of lava walking we would immediately lose the treasure. Maybe it wasn't supposed to go that way, but it did for our particular GM.