TOPIC: my experience... not good

You sir, have my lute

Forar wrote: This comes back to my point about having multiple damage types, actually. Unresistable is going to annoy people. Half fire/half cold (or half cold / half lightning, or any other combo) is actually a win/win;

In the past, Grind has had Ice Storm spells which, (like the RPG), deal half physical and half cold damage with no saving throw.

If people can expect to face more damage types, then using several damage resistance effects is going to be more likely to apply. Hell, have a creature that randomly gets a combination of them, making it difficult or impossible to prepare against in advance. Doesn't even need to be a lot of damage. "Deals 4 damage total, 2 Lightning, 2 Fire"; you can have 5 Fire Resist and it's still 2 damage getting through unless you also had Lightning Resistance on hand (equipped, spell, scroll, potion, whatever).

In 2014 WYC Grind, the final boss was a dragon, whose color was randomly determined. Of course it just so happened that every roll ended up with an acid-breathing dragon (Black or Green).

Of course the problem with your suggestion is things like the Supreme Ring which means you can even ignore -10 Shock, -10 Fire, -10 Cold, and -10 Sonic in a single attack. And the Topaz Trilliant is common enough amongst high level players that they mostly have -15 Darkrift as well.

valetutto wrote:

Incognito wrote: Well, in the RPG, there actually is Divine Fire.

In some versions, the 5th level Cleric spell "Flame Strike" actually does half fire damage and half divine damage (which is not affected by fire resistance).

So there actually is a canon precedent in the RPG....

Ya know I'm actually TOTALLY cool with a damage attack that requires someone to have resistance to 2 types before they can apply any resistance. Sacred Fire would be a perfect example. This would require me to have resistance to Sacred AND Fire before I could apply any resistance. It opens up a bigger world where you might have to try and make some choices not just stack 1 type. Its easy to explain to players, many are already familiar with this mechanic as its already in DnD, and lastly it STILL gives the play a way to prevent the damage provided they can resist both elements. It negates the need to make up crap you don't want to be easily resisted but still allows for an avenue.

Lots of combinations as well, Fiery Poison, Cold lightning, and the dreaded Icy Hot!

As long as the existing damage types are adhered to you shouldn't run afoul.

Except that since there is currently no sacred resistance (other than Drow Raider Necklace), players will undoubtedly whine and moan about taking divine damage.

I actually adhere to the source material quite closely, but tons of players whine and moan (e.g. why their Charm Removal doesn't help against Dominate, why their RoSEC doesn't help against the digestive acids of a Purple Worm, why an Ioun Stone Violet Prism or Lavender Ellipsoid won't help against a 4th level Enervation spell, etc.). These are all actual arguments I have had (multiple times in some cases).

A similar case would be this year's Mind Flayer 50% miss chance in the main dungeon.

Incognito wrote: I actually adhere to the source material quite closely, but tons of players whine and moan (e.g. why their Charm Removal doesn't help against Dominate, why their RoSEC doesn't help against the digestive acids of a Purple Worm, why an Ioun Stone Violet Prism or Lavender Ellipsoid won't help against a 4th level Enervation spell, etc.). These are all actual arguments I have had (multiple times in some cases).

A similar case would be this year's Mind Flayer 50% miss chance in the main dungeon.

There is whining because players can't retaliate or mitigate (which is healthy - it is called feedback and ideas for tokens) and there is whining when a "new" attack or "new" condition is introduced and undocumented. Players think other tokens may be similar when the "new" item is not. These "new" attacks/conditions should be documented in the rules shortly after the event.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote: I actually adhere to the source material quite closely, but tons of players whine and moan (e.g. why their Charm Removal doesn't help against Dominate, why their RoSEC doesn't help against the digestive acids of a Purple Worm, why an Ioun Stone Violet Prism or Lavender Ellipsoid won't help against a 4th level Enervation spell, etc.). These are all actual arguments I have had (multiple times in some cases).

A similar case would be this year's Mind Flayer 50% miss chance in the main dungeon.

There is whining because players can't retaliate or mitigate (which is healthy - it is called feedback and ideas for tokens) and there is whining when a "new" attack or "new" condition is introduced and undocumented. Players think other tokens may be similar when the "new" item is not. These "new" attacks/conditions should be documented in the rules shortly after the event.

Well, one example of a poor mechanic was the 2012 out-of-the-blue "Dark Stain" effect. None of the tokens mention anything about Dark Stain (though Darkrift damage was introduced that year). And then suddenly in the dungeon there is some new Dark Stain thing that the DM's have to try and explain to the players.

In contrast, this year you had the Amethyst Ovoid which helps against Psychic Blast. Yet somehow, a good number of players interpret this token as giving them immunity to all psychic attacks/effects. While familiarity with the RPG should certainly not be required, for many people it was very obvious that Psychic Blast was a very specific psychic attack and that the Ovoid wouldn't help against other things. (Heck, if you want to look at earlier editions, Psychic Blast was just 1 of the 5 attack forms, so it wouldn't cover Ego Whip, Mind Thrust, ID Insinuation, or Psychic Crush).

Incognito wrote: Well, one example of a poor mechanic was the 2012 out-of-the-blue "Dark Stain" effect. None of the tokens mention anything about Dark Stain (though Darkrift damage was introduced that year). And then suddenly in the dungeon there is some new Dark Stain thing that the DM's have to try and explain to the players.

I think we agree - let's minimize poor mechanics and document new attacks/conditions.

Ed

Incognito wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote: I actually adhere to the source material quite closely, but tons of players whine and moan (e.g. why their Charm Removal doesn't help against Dominate, why their RoSEC doesn't help against the digestive acids of a Purple Worm, why an Ioun Stone Violet Prism or Lavender Ellipsoid won't help against a 4th level Enervation spell, etc.). These are all actual arguments I have had (multiple times in some cases).

A similar case would be this year's Mind Flayer 50% miss chance in the main dungeon.

There is whining because players can't retaliate or mitigate (which is healthy - it is called feedback and ideas for tokens) and there is whining when a "new" attack or "new" condition is introduced and undocumented. Players think other tokens may be similar when the "new" item is not. These "new" attacks/conditions should be documented in the rules shortly after the event.

Well, one example of a poor mechanic was the 2012 out-of-the-blue "Dark Stain" effect. None of the tokens mention anything about Dark Stain (though Darkrift damage was introduced that year). And then suddenly in the dungeon there is some new Dark Stain thing that the DM's have to try and explain to the players.

In contrast, this year you had the Amethyst Ovoid which helps against Psychic Blast. Yet somehow, a good number of players interpret this token as giving them immunity to all psychic attacks/effects. While familiarity with the RPG should certainly not be required, for many people it was very obvious that Psychic Blast was a very specific psychic attack and that the Ovoid wouldn't help against other things. (Heck, if you want to look at earlier editions, Psychic Blast was just 1 of the 5 attack forms, so it wouldn't cover Ego Whip, Mind Thrust, ID Insinuation, or Psychic Crush).

Probably didn't help that the Party Card had a column called Psychic. In retrospect, it might have been better to say Psychic Blast on the party card.

Incognito wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote: I actually adhere to the source material quite closely, but tons of players whine and moan (e.g. why their Charm Removal doesn't help against Dominate, why their RoSEC doesn't help against the digestive acids of a Purple Worm, why an Ioun Stone Violet Prism or Lavender Ellipsoid won't help against a 4th level Enervation spell, etc.). These are all actual arguments I have had (multiple times in some cases).

A similar case would be this year's Mind Flayer 50% miss chance in the main dungeon.

There is whining because players can't retaliate or mitigate (which is healthy - it is called feedback and ideas for tokens) and there is whining when a "new" attack or "new" condition is introduced and undocumented. Players think other tokens may be similar when the "new" item is not. These "new" attacks/conditions should be documented in the rules shortly after the event.

Well, one example of a poor mechanic was the 2012 out-of-the-blue "Dark Stain" effect. None of the tokens mention anything about Dark Stain (though Darkrift damage was introduced that year). And then suddenly in the dungeon there is some new Dark Stain thing that the DM's have to try and explain to the players.

In contrast, this year you had the Amethyst Ovoid which helps against Psychic Blast. Yet somehow, a good number of players interpret this token as giving them immunity to all psychic attacks/effects. While familiarity with the RPG should certainly not be required, for many people it was very obvious that Psychic Blast was a very specific psychic attack and that the Ovoid wouldn't help against other things. (Heck, if you want to look at earlier editions, Psychic Blast was just 1 of the 5 attack forms, so it wouldn't cover Ego Whip, Mind Thrust, ID Insinuation, or Psychic Crush).

It was possible to get some forewarning about Darkstain. I got immunity to Darkstain as result of a slide in one of the Truecraft activities.

I actually like it when one or more conditions in a Dungeon can't be mitigated by tokens, it helps level the playing field for players with the whole range of token abilities. I remember thinking it was a missed opportunity when we had the Underwater adventure and it was easily possible to get a few tokens to completely mitigate the effects. It would have been fun to make all players (for example) have to go back to the air bubble in-between attacks.

By that - I mean it's cool when there is a Dungeon condition for which there are no tokens that can mitigate it, not when there are existing tokens and they are deemed to have no effect. The latter situation can cause a lot of ill-will.

Mike Steele wrote: I actually like it when one or more conditions in a Dungeon can't be mitigated by tokens, it helps level the playing field for players with the whole range of token abilities. I remember thinking it was a missed opportunity when we had the Underwater adventure and it was easily possible to get a few tokens to completely mitigate the effects. It would have been fun to make all players (for example) have to go back to the air bubble in-between attacks.

By that - I mean it's cool when there is a Dungeon condition for which there are no tokens that can mitigate it, not when there are existing tokens and they are deemed to have no effect. The latter situation can cause a lot of ill-will.

Underwater or Lack of Air could easily happen next year on an Elemental Plane.

I like it when a token from a previous year can help mitigate an obstacle.

Basically you have obstacles that can be overcome with tokens (rewarding the token buyers) and ones that should be (like acid right now).

Ed

Harlax wrote: Probably didn't help that the Party Card had a column called Psychic. In retrospect, it might have been better to say Psychic Blast on the party card.

I disagree.
That column on the party card indicates the player has psychic power. That's it.

The party card is for DMs, not for players. It uses quite a bit of shorthand. If a player chooses to misinterpret this shorthand without asking a coach or DM, it's the player's fault.

Druegar wrote: If a player chooses to misinterpret this shorthand without asking a coach or DM, it's the player's fault.

My issue is DM's actually misinterpret the module text either because they just make a mistake (to error is human) or because it is unclear and they are left to improvise.

Clearing up the attacks/conditions by documenting them helps.

By the way, I am not advocating no improvisation. It is great DM tool especially when it leaves the group feeling challenged as heroes. It is bad when it is done because they didn't read the text.

Ed

The Party Card Psychic column was supposed to be Psychic Tier. So you would see T0 or T1 at this point. At this point if you have it, it means you also are using the Ovoid and thus have Blast immunity. Unless other psychic attacks are created it doesn't seem necessary to note Blast.

I had a wicked idea on resistances though. Especially in the planes I can see some things getting flipped around. Sort of like how the undead cow would took damage from healing. Especially if it's random a bit, like for one room or a certain monster that takes a (randomly-determined at the beginning of the encounter) resistance and flips it to a bonus damage from that type instead. So a -3 cold resistance could add up to 3 damage if you are attacked with cold. So 1 cold becomes 2, 2 becomes 4, 3 becomes 6, but 4 would be 7. While it could be a trickier than normal thing, it should work fine on a monster that is otherwise a bit easier (AC or HP -wise). I think it would be interesting in that if we knew it might happen, would we wear that same resistance gear?

Lode