TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

Cary Kelly wrote: I will say I was surprised the Whetstone cost an Aragonite. I was figuring it would include Elven Bismuth along with some other pieces (Dwarven Steel and Enchanters Munition make sense to me) - but the Aragonite seems pricey for those that would most likely use it.

I might still make one to loan out to friends - but definitely not making multiples like I was considering when I first saw the token.

As for the recipes requiring so much Fleece I don't have a problem with it as much as even my casual playing friends seem to be swimming in it after the last couple GenCons.

Personally I’m glad the whetstone has the requirements it does. If it was too cheep to make it would opsaleatd most UR weapons.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: The GP requirements are the hardest part of any Transmute above 5k. You need 40k in GP to make a Legendary, everything else is a cake walk. 1k in GP is about $17-$18 right now.

IIRC

When I started playing, gold was $30/1k
Hides, Munitions, and Steel were $10
Planks were $7
Silk got up to $9
Oil and Bismuth were $20-25

For what that’s worth

I think the best way to use monster bits is just provide another avenue of exchange. Maybe be able to convert them to gold, I think 1 monster bit for 500 gold would be fair.

It would be more work but I would love to see an exchange service, 1 bit for a consumable, 10 bits or more for something more powerful. This would provide a way for people who only do a small number of events to utilize the bits they receive plus if it contains higher end options it gives a way for people who are traveling to multiple shows and doing large numbers of runs a way to absorb excess monster bits.

Although right now I need gold more than anything else. I have tons of monster bits and it feels like I have plenty of trade tokens but I have not done inventory in a while. I think I have enough trade tokens for 2 legendaries but not enough gold for both.

Recipes which are designed to soak large quantities of monster bits out of the system will just punish players who do not do large numbers of runs. I am thinking it would be better to reward the frequent players instead.

Kenban wrote: I have tons of monster bits...

Seriously, a lot of players will be happy to give you gold for your bits. TD tries to keep out of exchange rates or token values, and just focuses on supply and demand.

jedibcg wrote: Prices were UP a huge amount this year. To just play more is not something everyone can do. To go to more cons is just not something everyone can do. To have to money or extra tokens to trade is not something everyone can do. To set the price of transmutes so you have to play more, buy more, trade or go to more cons is going to alienate the vast majority of the players. And though those players make not make up very much of the token buying market. They do make up the vast majority of the ticket market. Tokens purchase make the game better. Ticket sales make the game happen. I hope we don't forget that and drive out 90% of players who don't visit the forums and are not big token buyers, but still contribute very much to this game that we all love.

It is a good point.

My interpretation is TPTB did a good job on the new player transmutes - probably the best year ever for them (in my opinion). The Enchanter's Whetstone helps them step up from Rare and the Charm of Treasure Boosting gives them an extra shot at an item from the treasure box.

In fairness, both of these will need a new player to buy about 30 packs either upfront in a $250 PYP or over the period of a few years to have the trade goods to make both of those. Unless they get really lucky in a treasure pull.

The nice thing is a $250 bundle could be shared by 2-3 people with them getting good gear for the other characters as well.

I am not sure if everyone agrees but the I think the UR/Transmute-5 star tokens really are not targeted at the ticket buyers that just come an play 1 or 2 without buying extra tokens packs. Hopefully those players will grow to that by having good R/UC/C and T3 tokens (along with good dungeons).

Ed

MasterED wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Prices were UP a huge amount this year. To just play more is not something everyone can do. To go to more cons is just not something everyone can do. To have to money or extra tokens to trade is not something everyone can do. To set the price of transmutes so you have to play more, buy more, trade or go to more cons is going to alienate the vast majority of the players. And though those players make not make up very much of the token buying market. They do make up the vast majority of the ticket market. Tokens purchase make the game better. Ticket sales make the game happen. I hope we don't forget that and drive out 90% of players who don't visit the forums and are not big token buyers, but still contribute very much to this game that we all love.

It is a good point.

My interpretation is TPTB did a good job on the new player transmutes - probably the best year ever for them (in my opinion). The Enchanter's Whetstone helps them step up from Rare and the Charm of Treasure Boosting gives them an extra shot at an item from the treasure box.

In fairness, both of these will need a new player to buy about 30 packs either upfront in a $250 PYP or over the period of a few years to have the trade goods to make both of those. Unless they get really lucky in a treasure pull.

The nice thing is a $250 bundle could be shared by 2-3 people with them getting good gear for the other characters as well.

I am not sure if everyone agrees but the I think the UR/Transmute-5 star tokens really are not targeted at the ticket buyers that just come an play 1 or 2 without buying extra tokens packs. Hopefully those players will grow to that by having good R/UC/C and T3 tokens (along with good dungeons).

Ed

I am also seeing a lot of new players volunteer and their free 10packs they get with volunteering are getting them into the game faster.

James J Krot wrote:

MasterED wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Prices were UP a huge amount this year. To just play more is not something everyone can do. To go to more cons is just not something everyone can do. To have to money or extra tokens to trade is not something everyone can do. To set the price of transmutes so you have to play more, buy more, trade or go to more cons is going to alienate the vast majority of the players. And though those players make not make up very much of the token buying market. They do make up the vast majority of the ticket market. Tokens purchase make the game better. Ticket sales make the game happen. I hope we don't forget that and drive out 90% of players who don't visit the forums and are not big token buyers, but still contribute very much to this game that we all love.

It is a good point.

My interpretation is TPTB did a good job on the new player transmutes - probably the best year ever for them (in my opinion). The Enchanter's Whetstone helps them step up from Rare and the Charm of Treasure Boosting gives them an extra shot at an item from the treasure box.

In fairness, both of these will need a new player to buy about 30 packs either upfront in a $250 PYP or over the period of a few years to have the trade goods to make both of those. Unless they get really lucky in a treasure pull.

The nice thing is a $250 bundle could be shared by 2-3 people with them getting good gear for the other characters as well.

I am not sure if everyone agrees but the I think the UR/Transmute-5 star tokens really are not targeted at the ticket buyers that just come an play 1 or 2 without buying extra tokens packs. Hopefully those players will grow to that by having good R/UC/C and T3 tokens (along with good dungeons).

Ed

I am also seeing a lot of new players volunteer and their free 10packs they get with volunteering are getting them into the game faster.

A major part of my build are my volunteer rares/UR's.

-Ed, aren't 5 star relics? I do consider those to be out of the reach or a gateway for newish players. I look at the 3/4 star stuff as being or should be more approachable. I look at the Blessed tempest gloves as a recent good example, it took a set rare, 1 trade good and some bits to make. It was a simple recipe and felt like a real upgrade.

We can go back and look at boots of the marauder as a good example of a desire rare+ transmute, it need rares from the time period but only 1 bit or gp.

Looking at whetstone i see 3 goods, plus bits, plus other stuff. Just trying to see who it's aimed at,

Matt wrote: Ed, aren't 5 star relics? I do consider those to be out of the reach or a gateway for newish players. I look at the 3/4 star stuff as being or should be more approachable. I look at the Blessed tempest gloves as a recent good example, it took a set rare, 1 trade good and some bits to make. It was a simple recipe and felt like a real upgrade.

Yes T5 is the same thing as a Relic.

The Blessed Tempest Gloves weren't cheap (depending on your definition). A Rare, 2 Monster Bits, and an Oil of Enchantment. I agree it is cheaper than the 2019 T4's but you only got a +1 to Ranged damage for Gloves.

For 2019 T4 you are getting +1 to hit and +1 to damage on any Rare weapon or +1 treasure. I feel both of those are more powerful then +1 damage. Just my opinion though.

I think they are aimed at the middle between Rare and UR but not just slightly better than Rare.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Matt wrote: Ed, aren't 5 star relics? I do consider those to be out of the reach or a gateway for newish players. I look at the 3/4 star stuff as being or should be more approachable. I look at the Blessed tempest gloves as a recent good example, it took a set rare, 1 trade good and some bits to make. It was a simple recipe and felt like a real upgrade.

Yes T5 is the same thing as a Relic.

The Blessed Tempest Gloves weren't cheap (depending on your definition). A Rare, 2 Monster Bits, and an Oil of Enchantment. I agree it is cheaper than the 2019 T4's but you only got a +1 to Ranged damage for Gloves.

For 2019 T4 you are getting +1 to hit and +1 to damage on any Rare weapon or +1 treasure. I feel both of those are more powerful then +1 damage. Just my opinion though.

I think they are aimed at the middle between Rare and UR but not just slightly better than Rare.

Ed

I’m personally for keeping the whetstone high cost.

I’ll lay out a example to explain why I keep saying if it’s too cheep it obsoletes UR weapons

+1 Iron Bastard Axe Last year versus +2 War Shillelagh

In the fae last year the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 5 and a max of 14 with a +1 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15
With the whetstone the +1 Iron Bastard Axe In the same type of Scenario would be clearly better than the +2 war shillelagh

In the fae last year using whetstone the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 6 and a max of 15 with a +2 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15

This same situation would apply to the Bliss weapons or what ever is the +3 damage to rare of the year. Yes you would change rares every year but at the price of rares who cares.

MasterED wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Prices were UP a huge amount this year. To just play more is not something everyone can do. To go to more cons is just not something everyone can do. To have to money or extra tokens to trade is not something everyone can do. To set the price of transmutes so you have to play more, buy more, trade or go to more cons is going to alienate the vast majority of the players. And though those players make not make up very much of the token buying market. They do make up the vast majority of the ticket market. Tokens purchase make the game better. Ticket sales make the game happen. I hope we don't forget that and drive out 90% of players who don't visit the forums and are not big token buyers, but still contribute very much to this game that we all love.

I am not sure if everyone agrees but the I think the UR/Transmute-5 star tokens really are not targeted at the ticket buyers that just come an play 1 or 2 without buying extra tokens packs. Hopefully those players will grow to that by having good R/UC/C and T3 tokens (along with good dungeons).

Ed

I agree with this assessment, and think it is pretty clear from the recipes.

If you look at normal 5 star relics and see how many token 10 packs you’d need to get enough trade goods to make them its around $1,000.

Or, put another way - around 1000 rares, 2000 uncommons, and 7000 commons. To put that into treasure pull perspective, that would be at least 1000 treasure pulls worth - probably more like 3000.

Elritch tokens are lower on transmute ingredients but required the components of 7 1k reward bonus tokens, or 4 or 3 ultrarares.

These tokens are simply out of reach to players who are going to get 2-3 token 10 packs each year and 15 treasure pulls a year (unless they pull very lucky treasure).

Let’s put it another way: if you buy. $250 pack every year you’d probably be able to get a relic after 3-4 years, with some trading.

Of the recipes I've looked at, the ONLY one that looks a little off is the whetstone. Having both an aragonite and an elven bismuth as requirements is pretty steep...yes, the token is good, but just saying it's "As good as an UR weapon" isn't true.

Rare weapons don't have the same upgraded damage wheels that URs do, nor do they have any special effects that most URs do, so the +1/+1 upgrade isn't equivalent.. I mean...+1 to hit, +1 to damage is in practice equivalent to just +2str for a melee character, or +2 dex +1 damage for a ranged character. Yes, it's slotless, but unlike other slotless tokens, it becomes null the moment you're using a non-red weapon. Personally, I'd suggest making it 1 aragonite OR 1 elven bismuth, while upping the dwarven steel requirement.

For reference to my involvement... I'm in the semi-casual crowd that gets a 1k order every year, volunteers full time, and does 1-2 runs at gencon, 2-3 runs at GHC. I actually have an easier time getting aragonite than I do bismuth, for some reason. Maybe that's just how my pulls have gone. The golden fleeces in relics...it's rough in my opinion, but I think I can deal with it, seeing as we've got 2 years to get materials for these recipes before the change takes place.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: in 2013. There was a lot of mystic silk. Those were used in the cloak. People were not happy. but it balanced out

in 2014 additional URs were used in the legendaries. again, not happy costs more(plus there were 5 legendaries)

i believe in 2014 Arg went up for those as well. That was before there were more opportunities to attend more cons(yes I know people cant go to everyone)

So it was bound to happen. it is bound to happen again.

so adding a 20-50$ fleece is way better than adding a few 90-110$ URs. so this one wasn't as bad.

If you are selling at $20, I will take four please.

i never said I was selling anything. that is what I had seen them on ebay at. i give a range

I know, was just being funny!