TOPIC: Official Statement on Treasure Enhancers

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I hadn't even realized counterfeit TE Tokens was an issue. I wonder if True Dungeon positively identified some. I hope anyone that counterfeits them (or any tokens) gets caught and punished.

I've been following these insane threads since TDC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't counterfeit Tokens. The term "counterfeit" came up in a post describing CoA's being used simultaneously in multiple Runs at the same time.

I remember saying that using one token on multiple simultaneous runs was the equivalent of counterfeiting. Sorry if I confused things

It's my mistake, Brad. I read Jeff's statement mentioning Fraud, and I thought he meant counterfeit tokens, not claiming to have them on a run when you don't. Although, there must be a concern about counterfeit TE Tokens, otherwise it wouldn't be necessary to remove them from a binder to let the Volunteer inspect them.

Actually - #3 of Jeff's list is clearly addressing a concern of counterfeit tokens:

3) When shown in the coaching room and epilogue room, all TEs must be removed from their binders/cases/pages/holders so TD personnel can inspect them through visual and tactile means. This should reduce fraud concerns and help to keep the value of the real TEs at their proper levels.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Ro-gan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I hadn't even realized counterfeit TE Tokens was an issue. I wonder if True Dungeon positively identified some. I hope anyone that counterfeits them (or any tokens) gets caught and punished.

I've been following these insane threads since TDC. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there aren't counterfeit Tokens. The term "counterfeit" came up in a post describing CoA's being used simultaneously in multiple Runs at the same time.

I remember saying that using one token on multiple simultaneous runs was the equivalent of counterfeiting. Sorry if I confused things

You may be the culprit, Brad. LOL!!

Your post saying that might have been the precursor to the outburst about counterfeit Tokens.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: found it on amazon.

smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WTHIXLA/ref=AmazonBasics_HQP_3P?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=hero-quick-promo&pf_rd_r=H7EA0B9JNA46VHAE09H4&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=2286283582&pf_rd_i=B0069V8GEG&th=1

Hopefully the link works.

Full disclosure. I do not have one and have not examined it at all yet.

That is pretty cool, but it's also pretty huge to hold a few tokens. It would be bulky for me to carry 10 of those around. Does anyone know of anything similar that's a lot smaller?

Harlax wrote: My first role as a volunteer was at the XP desk and the treasure box. Back when we entered the XP for runs. Now I coach. Both have their challenges.

I think this whole thing is getting way blown up. I trust my son and his friends. I trust my Team Synergy friends. I have many friends among the volunteer pool. I trust them too.

I loaned my enter Wizard build to a new player at TDC for True Horde Saturday evening. I didn't think twice about doing it. Of course he didn't have to take any weapons out the binder. Pointless given his stats. He had a blast by the way. Was killed, raised with a 1 point mushroom and immediately launched a spell using the Mad Evokers Charm to die again. I salute you, sir! He's hooked on TD now.



I don't fear malice. I do fear accidents. I'm already working on a solution to minimize the chance of that for the groups I run with. Its doable.


Let's dial it down, friends. We can manage this.

Thank you for making the experience for a new player so cool and for growing the community. I do not miss the days when we had to enter xp in the epilogue room. That was a nightmare. I'm also sorry if I've escalated the conversation any. I do get the concern people have over lost tokens. I just don't want the job in epilogue to be anymore stressful or difficult than it already is.

Kim Lindgren wrote: First, if it's truly come to this it makes me incredibly sad. Second, I'm not sure how this makes me feel about having anything to do with overseeing a treasure box. Maybe we should remove the treasure boxes from the Epilogue Room entirely and create a treasure draw area by Admin where we can have a few volunteers man the treasure boxes with an AC parked right behind them at all times in order to make sure that no token shenanigans are taking place either on the volunteer's part or the player's part. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but that sounds like where we're at.

I was wondering the same thing. About whether it might be better to just have something AC-level or Director-level handling the Epilogue room (or at least matters related to treasure coins).

Thinking of it another way, not every volunteer would even *want* the responsibility of handling other people's Charms of Avarice, because you are starting to edge towards potential liability issues (much like with the issue of TD "taking possession" of tokens).

And since some people are going to have heightened sensitivity due to all these treasure coin issues, it is definitely going to make the job of the Epilogue room that much harder.

Kim Lindgren wrote:

Harlax wrote: My first role as a volunteer was at the XP desk and the treasure box. Back when we entered the XP for runs. Now I coach. Both have their challenges.

I think this whole thing is getting way blown up. I trust my son and his friends. I trust my Team Synergy friends. I have many friends among the volunteer pool. I trust them too.

I loaned my enter Wizard build to a new player at TDC for True Horde Saturday evening. I didn't think twice about doing it. Of course he didn't have to take any weapons out the binder. Pointless given his stats. He had a blast by the way. Was killed, raised with a 1 point mushroom and immediately launched a spell using the Mad Evokers Charm to die again. I salute you, sir! He's hooked on TD now.



I don't fear malice. I do fear accidents. I'm already working on a solution to minimize the chance of that for the groups I run with. Its doable.


Let's dial it down, friends. We can manage this.

Thank you for making the experience for a new player so cool and for growing the community. I do not miss the days when we had to enter xp in the epilogue room. That was a nightmare. I'm also sorry if I've escalated the conversation any. I do get the concern people have over lost tokens. I just don't want the job in epilogue to be anymore stressful or difficult than it already is.

There were plenty of people throwing logs on this particular fire. No need to apologize.

Incognito wrote:

Kim Lindgren wrote: First, if it's truly come to this it makes me incredibly sad. Second, I'm not sure how this makes me feel about having anything to do with overseeing a treasure box. Maybe we should remove the treasure boxes from the Epilogue Room entirely and create a treasure draw area by Admin where we can have a few volunteers man the treasure boxes with an AC parked right behind them at all times in order to make sure that no token shenanigans are taking place either on the volunteer's part or the player's part. I'm not trying to be sarcastic but that sounds like where we're at.

I was wondering the same thing. About whether it might be better to just have something AC-level or Director-level handling the Epilogue room (or at least matters related to treasure coins).

Thinking of it another way, not every volunteer would even *want* the responsibility of handling other people's Charms of Avarice, because you are starting to edge towards potential liability issues (much like with the issue of TD "taking possession" of tokens).

And since some people are going to have heightened sensitivity due to all these treasure coin issues, it is definitely going to make the job of the Epilogue room that much harder.

When I am coaching I handle a lot of very valuable tokens.

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kim Lindgren wrote: If you cannot trust the volunteer in order to hand them the token to confirm it's legitimacy then there are much larger problems for all parties concerned. I mean are we getting to the point that we place such a financial value on tokens that a regular volunteer will no longer be able to man the treasure box because of trust issues between players and volunteers?

Unfortunately, it looks like we are headed in that direction.

We have multiple players who are concerned about simply removing their treasure enhancers from their binders or sleeves.

We have multiple players who are concerned about having someone else (even someone they know or one of their friends) carrying the treasure enhancers throughout the dungeon.

It sounds like you think people are concerned they can't trust their friends not to take their tokens. If so, that's not what I thought people were saying, and certainly not what I said. I'm concerned about tokens getting accidentally lost in the process of taking them out of the binder and having 10 different people carrying them through the dungeon. Especially when 9 of those people have no affinity for tokens. That's almost a guarantee that some CoA will get lost by someone eventually. I'm certainly not worried my friends will steal them. I will think twice before letting someone I don't know and trust carry them, which is I'm sure what Jeff was aiming for.

No, it sounds like you don't trust in the competence of your friends to not lose something you entrust them with.

Trust isn't just about stealing (or the lack thereof). Trust is also about reliability and dependability.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: found it on amazon.

smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WTHIXLA/ref=AmazonBasics_HQP_3P?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=hero-quick-promo&pf_rd_r=H7EA0B9JNA46VHAE09H4&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=2286283582&pf_rd_i=B0069V8GEG&th=1

Hopefully the link works.

Full disclosure. I do not have one and have not examined it at all yet.

That is pretty cool, but it's also pretty huge to hold a few tokens. It would be bulky for me to carry 10 of those around. Does anyone know of anything similar that's a lot smaller?

Mike, look at this:

www.amazon.com/Running-Buddy-Convenient-Belt-free-Lightweight/dp/B00IEF8KQ4/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1493608406&sr=8-5&keywords=Buddy+pouch

This might be exactly what you need.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kim Lindgren wrote: If you cannot trust the volunteer in order to hand them the token to confirm it's legitimacy then there are much larger problems for all parties concerned. I mean are we getting to the point that we place such a financial value on tokens that a regular volunteer will no longer be able to man the treasure box because of trust issues between players and volunteers?

Unfortunately, it looks like we are headed in that direction.

We have multiple players who are concerned about simply removing their treasure enhancers from their binders or sleeves.

We have multiple players who are concerned about having someone else (even someone they know or one of their friends) carrying the treasure enhancers throughout the dungeon.

It sounds like you think people are concerned they can't trust their friends not to take their tokens. If so, that's not what I thought people were saying, and certainly not what I said. I'm concerned about tokens getting accidentally lost in the process of taking them out of the binder and having 10 different people carrying them through the dungeon. Especially when 9 of those people have no affinity for tokens. That's almost a guarantee that some CoA will get lost by someone eventually. I'm certainly not worried my friends will steal them. I will think twice before letting someone I don't know and trust carry them, which is I'm sure what Jeff was aiming for.

No, it sounds like you don't trust in the competence of your friends to not lose something you entrust them with.

Trust isn't just about stealing (or the lack thereof). Trust is also about reliability and dependability.

It sounds like he fears replacing something simple with something complex. Which creates more opportunites for errors.

How about we work on some mechanisms for reducing the opportunity for error instead of arguing about who we trust.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kim Lindgren wrote: If you cannot trust the volunteer in order to hand them the token to confirm it's legitimacy then there are much larger problems for all parties concerned. I mean are we getting to the point that we place such a financial value on tokens that a regular volunteer will no longer be able to man the treasure box because of trust issues between players and volunteers?

Unfortunately, it looks like we are headed in that direction.

We have multiple players who are concerned about simply removing their treasure enhancers from their binders or sleeves.

We have multiple players who are concerned about having someone else (even someone they know or one of their friends) carrying the treasure enhancers throughout the dungeon.

It sounds like you think people are concerned they can't trust their friends not to take their tokens. If so, that's not what I thought people were saying, and certainly not what I said. I'm concerned about tokens getting accidentally lost in the process of taking them out of the binder and having 10 different people carrying them through the dungeon. Especially when 9 of those people have no affinity for tokens. That's almost a guarantee that some CoA will get lost by someone eventually. I'm certainly not worried my friends will steal them. I will think twice before letting someone I don't know and trust carry them, which is I'm sure what Jeff was aiming for.

No, it sounds like you don't trust in the competence of your friends to not lose something you entrust them with.

Trust isn't just about stealing (or the lack thereof). Trust is also about reliability and dependability.

All true, but I don't see its relevance.

My sister-in-law is late for everything. She was planning on coming over today at 9am. She arrived at 2.

Doesn't make her a bad person. But if we are going to a 7pm movie, we plan on dinner at our place first. And she's always late for that, and we go to the movie and eat after. She is not responsible, dependable, trustworthy (if a clock is involved) or least of all punctual.

But she's family, and we aren't cutting ties with her, and we aren't creating drama by pretending she can meet us at the theatre at 6:45. We accommodate her shortcoming, and she accommodates ours.

So I'd never tell people they should only have friends who are perfect, because then they'd never have any.

Harlax wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Kim Lindgren wrote: If you cannot trust the volunteer in order to hand them the token to confirm it's legitimacy then there are much larger problems for all parties concerned. I mean are we getting to the point that we place such a financial value on tokens that a regular volunteer will no longer be able to man the treasure box because of trust issues between players and volunteers?

Unfortunately, it looks like we are headed in that direction.

We have multiple players who are concerned about simply removing their treasure enhancers from their binders or sleeves.

We have multiple players who are concerned about having someone else (even someone they know or one of their friends) carrying the treasure enhancers throughout the dungeon.

It sounds like you think people are concerned they can't trust their friends not to take their tokens. If so, that's not what I thought people were saying, and certainly not what I said. I'm concerned about tokens getting accidentally lost in the process of taking them out of the binder and having 10 different people carrying them through the dungeon. Especially when 9 of those people have no affinity for tokens. That's almost a guarantee that some CoA will get lost by someone eventually. I'm certainly not worried my friends will steal them. I will think twice before letting someone I don't know and trust carry them, which is I'm sure what Jeff was aiming for.

No, it sounds like you don't trust in the competence of your friends to not lose something you entrust them with.

Trust isn't just about stealing (or the lack thereof). Trust is also about reliability and dependability.

It sounds like he fears replacing something simple with something complex. Which creates more opportunites for errors.

How about we work on some mechanisms for reducing the opportunity for error instead of arguing about who we trust.

Thanks, Harlax. You hit the nail on the head.
Current method is carrying all 10 sets of TE Tokens in a secure binder, and showing them to the Coach in said Binder.
New method:
* taking them all out,
* handing them to all 10 people,
* having those 10 people remove them from whatever container I select and spread them out over the table
* All 10 People gathering them up and putting them in the secure container
* All 10 People carrying them through the Dungeon on their person
* All 10 People taking them out of the container and handing them to the Volunteer
* All 10 People (in the chaos of the Epilogue Room as many are rushing to their next event) putting them back in their container and giving them back to me.

Repeat that process 2-4 times (for my group) per GENCON.

The new process has a lot of possible hand-offs and tokens in lots of different locations, which greatly increases the chance of a $1,000 token getting lost.