TOPIC: Official Statement on Treasure Enhancers

I still believe that marking the TE tokens off on the party card somehow, combined with spot checks in the dungeon, will help enforce the TE proclamation. Using initials in the total treasure box, set up like the damage type symbols, would make it easy to check a player or two per party while in the dungeon. Once checked, a stamp on the card lets the other DMs/NPCs/epilogue staff know that they have been checked once.

As has been brought up earlier, how would people be penalized for breaking the rules? A new player may agree to wear a CoA, but the veteran player holds it. That new player gets checked and doesn't have the token. The veteran should be held responsible, but how? I would prefer a tough penalty, like loss of chips, but that may be a bit too punitive.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Digging through the forums, ran across this post, thought I'd just leave this here for us to reflect on:

Jeff Martin wrote: It is a truism that the only thing more trying than failure is success. It is really, really cool to see our little group project called Treasure Tokens doing so well. I guess people really like these things since the prices are so high. I just hope that all the Token Posts don't end up being about hard commerce. That would be kind of depressing. Remember when they were about the excitement of what people pulled -- and how cool people were to trade amongst themselves?

...

Anyway, if I can make this plea, please don't lose sight of the fun of collecting tokens or getting a cool token in the dungeon. If your first thought is "Cool! I found a Helm of Death and I can get $200 for that on Ebay", maybe you have lost sight of something that you used to know. I am a little sad about that eventuality, but I guess that is the price we all pay for making such a cool thing together.

This post is not direct at ANYONE -- rather at the general community and at a slight shift I can see coming. I see posts about the fun and trading of tokens going down, and the commerce posts going up. I just wish I was reading more of the former.

Please don't take offense at this. I felt it needed to be said. Just a little prod from your Dungeon Master...

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=66592&limitstart=0

I can sympathize with this statement. I bet if Jeff sold a TD ticket that allowed people to bypass the Dungeon and go straight to the treasure boxes with all your TE's a lot of them would sell. At least it would curb the ghosters and people running just for treasure pulls from purchasing tickets that can be used by others who actually want to play for the experience. I've done runs at Gen Con and seen people who have already went through the dungeons a few times just sitting in the rooms and either not participating or just chatting with others who have already been on runs. Where's the fun in that? Not to mention it dilutes the experience for the others who are on the run.

I usually go on four runs at GenCon. Two of each Combat version. I did this back when my only TE was the CoGF. Its not new for me.

I do it to run with friends. My son has a group I run with. I run with Team Synergy. There are other friends I like to run with.

I do it to ensure I get max XP. I've never died before room 7, but I've seen it happen.

its fun.

Some puzzles require all 10 players to participate. Some can be solved just as easily, or even more easily, by fewer players. Not all my first attempts at a puzzle suceed. I want another crack at them.

I don't just stand around if I have solved the puzzle and others haven't. But I don't spoil it for them either.

Yes, I like treasure. But I did it before treasure draws got big. I'd still do if they shrunk.

Rob F wrote: I can sympathize with this statement. I bet if Jeff sold a TD ticket that allowed people to bypass the Dungeon and go straight to the treasure boxes with all your TE's a lot of them would sell. At least it would curb the ghosters and people running just for treasure pulls from purchasing tickets that can be used by others who actually want to play for the experience. I've done runs at Gen Con and seen people who have already went through the dungeons a few times just sitting in the rooms and either not participating or just chatting with others who have already been on runs. Where's the fun in that? Not to mention it dilutes the experience for the others who are on the run.

That's an interesting proposal, Rob. TD could put treasure pulls for sale on the website for whatever the going rate it ($3-$4.50 each?) to be collected at GenCon. Jeff might have to invest in a larger cement mixer, but I imagine it would be profitable for TD and lessen the desire for ghosting for some. However, this should never happen as it would make treasure pulls more about commerce and less about the dungeon.

Harlax wrote: I usually go on four runs at GenCon. Two of each Combat version. I did this back when my only TE was the CoGF. Its not new for me.

I do it to run with friends. My son has a group I run with. I run with Team Synergy. There are other friends I like to run with.

I do it to ensure I get max XP. I've never died before room 7, but I've seen it happen.

its fun.

Some puzzles require all 10 players to participate. Some can be solved just as easily, or even more easily, by fewer players. Not all my first attempts at a puzzle suceed. I want another crack at them.

I don't just stand around if I have solved the puzzle and others haven't. But I don't spoil it for them either.

Yes, I like treasure. But I did it before treasure draws got big. I'd still do if they shrunk.

I had a hard time with finding a balance for this at TDC. How do you participate without giving too much away? And what is 'too much' to give away? Honestly I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, but I definitely want to do the run with multiple people.

Rob F wrote: I've done runs at Gen Con and seen people who have already went through the dungeons a few times just sitting in the rooms and either not participating or just chatting with others who have already been on runs. Where's the fun in that? Not to mention it dilutes the experience for the others who are on the run.

Well, normally I only go on runs organized through the forum or through people I know.

At TDC, I did two pick-up runs and didn't enjoy either. So it'll be a long time before I willingly do random pick-up runs again.

There is rapidly diminishing marginal returns after even just the first run.

I'll typically go through a dungeon 2-3 times but after the first time, I'll be sitting around or chatting.

One reason to sit around is if you are tired. At GenCon, I am volunteering most of the time and am on my feet. Any chance to sit down is welcome.

As for chatting, sometimes going on a dungeon run is mainly to hang out with some people (who you don't see the rest of the year) for 2 hours. So yes, I'd rather be chatting with someone than fidget around a dungeon I have already done.

It could also be a holdover from the old days of actual SURVIVOR tokens and when rooms where actually pretty lethal. Back then, you booked extra runs to make sure you would actually get the Survivor token and max XP. Nowadays, things are a cake walk and you get multiple participation trophies just for playing. Those soccer parents would certainly be happy with this!

Beertram wrote:

Rob F wrote: I can sympathize with this statement. I bet if Jeff sold a TD ticket that allowed people to bypass the Dungeon and go straight to the treasure boxes with all your TE's a lot of them would sell. At least it would curb the ghosters and people running just for treasure pulls from purchasing tickets that can be used by others who actually want to play for the experience. I've done runs at Gen Con and seen people who have already went through the dungeons a few times just sitting in the rooms and either not participating or just chatting with others who have already been on runs. Where's the fun in that? Not to mention it dilutes the experience for the others who are on the run.

That's an interesting proposal, Rob. TD could put treasure pulls for sale on the website for whatever the going rate it ($3-$4.50 each?) to be collected at GenCon. Jeff might have to invest in a larger cement mixer, but I imagine it would be profitable for TD and lessen the desire for ghosting for some. However, this should never happen as it would make treasure pulls more about commerce and less about the dungeon.

Something like that has been proposed several times over the last couple of years. It does have the downside of making things totally about commerce instead of the Dungeon, and also runs the risk of tons of treasure tokens being sold this way (if there was a profit to be made, I wouldn't be surprised at all if someone(s) showed up with $10K or more to buy the token pulls with). That could cause them to run out of tokens for Dungeon pulls, and also might flood the market with tokens from the treasure box mix so that Jeff would have to significantly dilute the treasure mix.

Also, if there is concern about loaning/abuse of TE enhancers, then maybe it is time to rethink the situation about Level benefits:

#1. Players can (and sometimes do) currently cheat by using the 5th level Medallion of Nobility to get the extra treasure coin that only 6th+ level players should be getting. Any 5th level player can cheat this way. There have also been reports of low-level players purchasing Medallions of Nobility expressly for this purpose.

#2. Since the Medallion, lanyard, and pin can all be used to get the extra treasure coin, an 8th level player can use 3 methods, 2 of which can be loaned out. We should figure out a better system so that they can't loan these to other players.


In fact, many of us have been saying this for years, but we really should update the Level benefits.

The Level 2 benefit: REWARD: Ability to enter certain special events like this year's True Grind event is really unenforceable. Plus, I don't think Jeff would really want me to turn away a group of newbies who signed up for Grind.

There is also currently no Level 4 benefit.

Raven wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: As a Coach. I do all other stats first.

At the end I ask to see all treasure tokens. That will count late arrivals etc.

^^ This. Definitely the best way of doing it. Usually just before the announcement that you can pack up your things now, we'll be heading to the Training room soon. Also time to go for your last rest-room break if needed.

Kirk Bauer wrote: And I believe that rules that aren't enforced or (in this case) are unenforceable are worse than no rules at all.

My proposal is to keep the other rules but don't bother with the "you must carry your own treasure-enhancer through the whole dungeon". But *do* have the rule that you must have each treasure-enhancer in front of you for the coach, removed from any container. And you must have each treasure-enhancer it your hand to give to the epilogue room volunteer. Accept that we can't control any more than that, even if we should. We still solve the problem of treasure-enhancers not being on the run. We can also instruct coaches to watch for any sort of wheeling and dealing in the coaching room for the lending of any sort of tokens and discourage the behavior.

^^ bold emphasis mine

It's obvious from how poorly the request to "please not lend out TEs, especially to groups you aren't on" has been respected (by some parties) that the people who are breaking the rules are gonna keep breaking the rules if they can get away with it.

If a rule is made such as "You must carry your own TEs with you through the Dungeon", then the people who are breaking rules will break it anyways, and collect after Training & redistribute before Epilogue. The only people who will obey it are the ones who were following the rules anyways, which means they'll be the ones who are taking the brunt of the risk with the new ruling, and are most likely going to lose a valuable TE at some point.

Even if the 'each player carries TE they equip' rule isnt strictly enforced, it does serve a purpose: when newer players are offered a deal by someone with extra TE, and then the owner says they will keep them until the epilogue room when checked, that new player may decline the offer completely since they were just asked to blantantly break the rules.

As for those of us being asked to distribute our TE among friends/family; i am thinking we will find an effective method for each player to carry TE that is less risky than passing them back and forth multiple times each dungeon(coaching, after coaching, before epilogue, and after epilogue). Of course, i dont have a full set of 10, so maybe those owners are paranoid about losing track of them after the dungeon.

kurtreznor wrote: As for those of us being asked to distribute our TE among friends/family; i am thinking we will find an effective method for each player to carry TE that is less risky than passing them back and forth multiple times each dungeon(coaching, after coaching, before epilogue, and after epilogue). Of course, i dont have a full set of 10, so maybe those owners are paranoid about losing track of them after the dungeon.

Yeah - it's a bit of a hassle, but I'll work up some sort of zippered or velcro bag, probably with a plastic window, that can be worn around the neck. It won't be too bad.

I see fanny packs making a comeback!

Since they have to be able to be touched by TD Staff, I 2ill probably just get simple travel wallets for my friends and myself.