TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Picc wrote: I dont know, if I didnt know what td was I wouldnt be likely to sign up for a 3rd party forum. I might still complain when I got there and someone else got my prefered class because they did. In the moment I would probably feel like it was unfair to start making decisions about the game before it started. That said I'm not new so I'm ok with being on the forms, but I can totally see how it could be viewed as a turn off.

Or... maybe that player signs up and sees that this game has an online presence. They start to read more about it and realize this is REALLY cool! They spend some money on new tokens to prepare for it. They check out tokendb.com to get all the great information they need about how tokens work. They come to the forums and coordinate with some vets who help them pick a class, maybe borrow some tokens. They get REALLY excited about how fun this all sounds and they have a kickass time and continue to play for years to come because the expectations were set early, us vets helped them through the learning curve and we reduced potential conflicts.

Is this a turn off... or a turn on?!

Guedoji wrote:

Picc wrote: I dont know, if I didnt know what td was I wouldnt be likely to sign up for a 3rd party forum. I might still complain when I got there and someone else got my prefered class because they did. In the moment I would probably feel like it was unfair to start making decisions about the game before it started. That said I'm not new so I'm ok with being on the forms, but I can totally see how it could be viewed as a turn off.

Or... maybe that player signs up and sees that this game has an online presence. They start to read more about it and realize this is REALLY cool! They spend some money on new tokens to prepare for it. They check out tokendb.com to get all the great information they need about how tokens work. They come to the forums and coordinate with some vets who help them pick a class, maybe borrow some tokens. They get REALLY excited about how fun this all sounds and they have a kickass time and continue to play for years to come because the expectations were set early, us vets helped them through the learning curve and we reduced potential conflicts.

Is this a turn off... or a turn on?!

Or maybe... for me it would he a turn off full stop. Maybe it would he different for some, who can say. All I know for sure is that I dont respond well to being marketed too.

Guedoji wrote: I have yet to see a good reason for not making the rules be forum coordination 1st, then pre-gen, being on time, then roll off. We could then get rid of the 3rd lvl bonus, start to get more forum users, more activity, save time in the coaching room. Expectations would be set for. the beginning, if people didnt read, it's their own fault. I have not heard a legit down side to this.

I suppose you only see what you look for; I've seen several good reasons stated multiple times.

But here's a pretty overwhelming "legit" down side I haven't seen stated yet: requiring coaches to adjudicate class disputes based on forum coordination would be a disaster.

Scene: coach arrives. Have we all agreed amicably on class selections? Three of you want to play Rogue. Did anybody post on the forums? (everybody pulls out smartphones and frantically tries to locate forum threads) (five minutes later) Hmm, so it looks like players 1 and 2 posted in the same LFO thread about both wanting to play Rogue; they couldn't agree online, and can't agree in person either. Player 3 posted a totally different LFO thread about wanting to play Rogue, and had no idea there was any dispute until 10 minutes ago. I sure hope the official Player's Handbook contains a bulletproof set of rules for how to determine whose forum post "counts".

Bottom line: for players who can amicably agree, forum coordination is a great tool. For players who can't amicably agree, forum coordination will not solve anything, will make the coaching room much worse, and requires an additional set of rules you haven't even proposed yet (the details of which will almost certainly involve additional downsides).

If you have official forum threads and make it an official rule. This is not a real issue.

David Zych wrote:

Guedoji wrote: I have yet to see a good reason for not making the rules be forum coordination 1st, then pre-gen, being on time, then roll off. We could then get rid of the 3rd lvl bonus, start to get more forum users, more activity, save time in the coaching room. Expectations would be set for. the beginning, if people didnt read, it's their own fault. I have not heard a legit down side to this.

I suppose you only see what you look for; I've seen several good reasons stated multiple times.

But here's a pretty overwhelming "legit" down side I haven't seen stated yet: requiring coaches to adjudicate class disputes based on forum coordination would be a disaster.

Scene: coach arrives. Have we all agreed amicably on class selections? Three of you want to play Rogue. Did anybody post on the forums? (everybody pulls out smartphones and frantically tries to locate forum threads) (five minutes later) Hmm, so it looks like players 1 and 2 posted in the same LFO thread about both wanting to play Rogue; they couldn't agree online, and can't agree in person either. Player 3 posted a totally different LFO thread about wanting to play Rogue, and had no idea there was any dispute until 10 minutes ago. I sure hope the official Player's Handbook contains a bulletproof set of rules for how to determine whose forum post "counts".

Bottom line: for players who can amicably agree, forum coordination is a great tool. For players who can't amicably agree, forum coordination will not solve anything, will make the coaching room much worse, and requires an additional set of rules you haven't even proposed yet (the details of which will almost certainly involve additional downsides).

So opt out of the TD news letter. Why should we stop trying to educate users for the minority who can simply opt out by either not participating or opt out of the newsletter. Getting people enrolled upfront is helpful to everyone.

Picc wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Picc wrote: I dont know, if I didnt know what td was I wouldnt be likely to sign up for a 3rd party forum. I might still complain when I got there and someone else got my prefered class because they did. In the moment I would probably feel like it was unfair to start making decisions about the game before it started. That said I'm not new so I'm ok with being on the forms, but I can totally see how it could be viewed as a turn off.

Or... maybe that player signs up and sees that this game has an online presence. They start to read more about it and realize this is REALLY cool! They spend some money on new tokens to prepare for it. They check out tokendb.com to get all the great information they need about how tokens work. They come to the forums and coordinate with some vets who help them pick a class, maybe borrow some tokens. They get REALLY excited about how fun this all sounds and they have a kickass time and continue to play for years to come because the expectations were set early, us vets helped them through the learning curve and we reduced potential conflicts.

Is this a turn off... or a turn on?!

Or maybe... for me it would he a turn off full stop. Maybe it would he different for some, who can say. All I know for sure is that I dont respond well to being marketed too.

I'm of the opinion that we should be keeping barriers to entry low. $80 already takes a leap of faith.

Forcing folks to engage in a community they don't even care about (yet) is just bad optics. In fact, I'd argue that it reeks of desperation.

Guedoji wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Guedoji wrote: It would require people to sign up and do the bare minimum research/communication to understand what they are getting into.

Guedoji, my friend, allow me to introduce you to cold, dark, reality...

The people we want in the community WILL read it and they will be better off for it.

This statement is disturbing. The people we want in the community? That's not the way I see this community at all. The arguments against the proposal of "rewarding" online/forum collaboration with first picks at classes have been well-thought-out, clearly stated. But I'll throw one more on top of the pile - What the advocates are calling "reward" is two-edged. Argue all you want, but it also penalizes those who are unable or unwilling to participate. The difference in the HP bump is all things being equal - everyone will always start with the HP tied to your build. The bump doesn't take anything away from anyone else, it strictly rewards the players who use the app.
Taking choice away from someone who does not participate, is definitively a penalty, and again - for an 80-plus dollar entertainment - you will lose players. I don't know about anyone else here, but "the people I want" in this community, is anyone who wants to play the game, at any level of investment or commitment, and I want the all to be able to share equally in the fun of the game.

TD is the exclusive, must do event at GENCON. We are all hipsters here... optics is not going to he an issue. Again, there is no new barrier to entry. Signing up is voluntary, but it has the added benefit of giving people the information they need to learn about TD up front and set expectations appropriately. This will increase satisfaction of both new and old players.

Arnold wrote: I'm of the opinion that we should be keeping barriers to entry low. $80 already takes a leap of faith.

Forcing folks to engage in a community they don't even care about (yet) is just bad optics. In fact, I'd argue that it reeks of desperation.

Guedoji wrote: So opt out of the TD news letter. Why should we stop trying to educate users for the minority who can simply opt out by either not participating or opt out of the newsletter. Getting people enrolled upfront is helpful to everyone.

Picc wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Picc wrote: I dont know, if I didnt know what td was I wouldnt be likely to sign up for a 3rd party forum. I might still complain when I got there and someone else got my prefered class because they did. In the moment I would probably feel like it was unfair to start making decisions about the game before it started. That said I'm not new so I'm ok with being on the forms, but I can totally see how it could be viewed as a turn off.

Or... maybe that player signs up and sees that this game has an online presence. They start to read more about it and realize this is REALLY cool! They spend some money on new tokens to prepare for it. They check out tokendb.com to get all the great information they need about how tokens work. They come to the forums and coordinate with some vets who help them pick a class, maybe borrow some tokens. They get REALLY excited about how fun this all sounds and they have a kickass time and continue to play for years to come because the expectations were set early, us vets helped them through the learning curve and we reduced potential conflicts.

Is this a turn off... or a turn on?!

Or maybe... for me it would he a turn off full stop. Maybe it would he different for some, who can say. All I know for sure is that I dont respond well to being marketed too.

Agree to disagree I guess

Grekel! wrote: I don't know about anyone else here, but "the people I want" in this community, is anyone who wants to play the game, at any level of investment or commitment, and I want the all to be able to share equally in the fun of the game.

I agree. As I said previous changing from a 3rd level reward to a system that rewards players for signing up on a forum, is just substituting one group with another. You are still going to have people show and say I hope I am not going to have to kick some non-forumite out of my class. It doesn't solve the issue it just moves it to a different set of folks getting the 'reward'.

Actually I get penalized every time I spend hours building my classes, then show up 30 minutes early only to find someone was just a few minutes earlier and took my class. Then I dont get the hp bump, I dont get to use my tokens and I dont get my class.

Coordination on the forums would give people the opertunity to settle their differences and find a new run if needed.

Grekel! wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Guedoji wrote: It would require people to sign up and do the bare minimum research/communication to understand what they are getting into.

Guedoji, my friend, allow me to introduce you to cold, dark, reality...

The people we want in the community WILL read it and they will be better off for it.

This statement is disturbing. The people we want in the community? That's not the way I see this community at all. The arguments against the proposal of "rewarding" online/forum collaboration with first picks at classes have been well-thought-out, clearly stated. But I'll throw one more on top of the pile - What the advocates are calling "reward" is two-edged. Argue all you want, but it also penalizes those who are unable or unwilling to participate. The difference in the HP bump is all things being equal - everyone will always start with the HP tied to your build. The bump doesn't take anything away from anyone else, it strictly rewards the players who use the app.
Taking choice away from someone who does not participate, is definitively a penalty, and again - for an 80-plus dollar entertainment - you will lose players. I don't know about anyone else here, but "the people I want" in this community, is anyone who wants to play the game, at any level of investment or commitment, and I want the all to be able to share equally in the fun of the game.

Guedoji wrote:

Picc wrote: I dont know, if I didnt know what td was I wouldnt be likely to sign up for a 3rd party forum. I might still complain when I got there and someone else got my prefered class because they did. In the moment I would probably feel like it was unfair to start making decisions about the game before it started. That said I'm not new so I'm ok with being on the forms, but I can totally see how it could be viewed as a turn off.

Or... maybe that player signs up and sees that this game has an online presence. They start to read more about it and realize this is REALLY cool! They spend some money on new tokens to prepare for it. They check out tokendb.com to get all the great information they need about how tokens work. They come to the forums and coordinate with some vets who help them pick a class, maybe borrow some tokens. They get REALLY excited about how fun this all sounds and they have a kickass time and continue to play for years to come because the expectations were set early, us vets helped them through the learning curve and we reduced potential conflicts.

Is this a turn off... or a turn on?!

Maybe there's a percentage that would love that, a percentage that would be neutral, and a percentage that would find it a full stop. Maybe True Dungeon doesn't want to risk losing that final percentage before they even try True Dungeon.

I play with a great group of friends, several of whom have been playing since the very beginning or shortly afterwards, but I'm the only one who's active on the forums (or active with True Dungeon in any way other than playing it). I can guarantee that if they had to go on the forums to line up classes ahead of time, every one of them would rather quit True Dungeon instead, it just wouldn't be worth their time.