TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Harlax wrote: I have a build for every class in my app. It doesn't take that much time.

Most PUG groups are going to play on normal, unless some vet loans them tokens. There is no need to stress builds at that level.

Otherwise, join in with a group where you can work thinks out beforehand and be sure of your class selection. I haven't run in a PUG for years.

+1

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

Yes*

* I believe the one uniform item people agreed on was that class selection should happen by the start time and once a coach starts recording no class changes are allowed for that class. If you don't make it by the start time you get what is left. This needs to be written in the rules and posted on the sign.

Let me summarize:

These rules (based off the 3rd level perk) should be documented and posted in the coaches room.

1. Class selection should happen by the start of the event (amended to clarified). Please discuss your desired class selection if you arrive early (to inform).
2. Any Lvl3+ can "pull rank" once of a Lvl1-2 for a class before the start of the event (current rules and amended).
3. If two Lvl3+ want the same class they roll off (current rules). Only one class challenge allowed per person and it must be before the start of the event (amending).
4. If a coach has started record stats for a class no class changes can occur for that class. (clarified)
5. If you arrive after the start of the event you select from the remaining classes in the order you arrive. (clarified)

Ed

I'll admit I'm confused. Earlier you said there is "there is not a clearly better method then what we already have." but then you explain something different than what we already have. The current rule puts no limit on arrival time, except presumably when you leave the coaching room and enter the training room. But your proposed sign is quite significantly better than the current method since it specifies a cut-off for class selection.

Ed, when you say class selection should happen by start of event, do you mean it should begin at that point or be completed at that point?

You're one of the few people in favor of keeping the Level 3+ rule, I'd be curious as to your thinking of why that's a beneficial rule.

If memory serves, the audio in the coaching room prior to official start time references selecting characters, laying out your tokens and trading with other players to improve builds.

Not the audio is always audible. Or that anyone pays attention to it.

Guedoji wrote: It's pretty stressful trying to coordinate a group of new/ semi-novice players in a pug and that's what I was hoping to solve by forum coordination.

It might be stressful for you I wouldn't know. I know I have no stress with complete pug runs I am on, or with new/semi-novice players in my runs. Not saying you are wrong, you just don't speak for everyone with that statement.

Since I've started playing I've lost out on my preferred class, maybe 40% of my runs.

I am not certain what the point of this statement is. Are you saying that is low? In a roll off you would get it 50% of the time.

I've invested heavily in TD, outside of 3-5 runs a year, thousands of dollars is tokens to support the game, this would be unheard of for any other game, but I justify it by knowing the money is going to a better experience.[/quote[ you saying because you spent lots of money you should get first pick of classes?

[qoute]I've spent a ton of time researching my and other classes so I can help the other players I'm bringing in. I've spent a ton of time building characters.

Are you saying you should get a higher pick because of the time you have spent?

[qoute]Its extremely difficult to get groups of tickets for GENCON.[/quote] I disagree, but I understand not all experiences are the same. I have routinely gotten multiple full runs for Gen Con for the past 10 years.

Side note: asking someone to buy out a whole run to play the class they want is unacceptable, that puts more burden on the player to now coordinate what to do with the leftover tickets and then a risk of losing money. It's also far too expensive to ask this of people and its extremely difficult to coordinate if you want to do anything else at the convention.

I don't think anyone asked you to do that. That said some people do do that. They post in the forums what they are have and most of those 'extra' tickets get picked up. I admit I don't know the figures we would need to look and Andrew's wonderful post and then contact anyone that still did not get their tickets filled.

So why do we keep falling back to a "vet" should take all the burden when we dont expect a new player to do anything but show up?

Because we are the ones that know the game is worth it. Excepting a new player to jump through hoops is not likely to gain a new player more than it is to lose a vet.

[qoute]We already have a 10pack only run that can stay no exp needed. Maybe these dont allow class priority because they are ment for new players. Then make the other runs state that they recommend players coordinate on the forums as it may impact class selection. [/quote] I do agree all runs should state that it is a recommendation that players coordinate on the forums. That is a recommendation though and not a requirement.

Look, people that come prepared should be rewarded for it, both new and vets. This is the only way your going to save time as things get more complex. Anything we can do to work this out in advance will improve everyone's experience. It will give people a chance to know what they are getting into, and back out if they feel the group isnt for them.

They are rewarded already. One they know their class and difficultly which you define as stress thing to work out, so that stress is removed. Second they get an HP bump.

Guedoji wrote: If it was just me I would do that, but any given year I may have a mix of 3-5 people who ask me to coordinate and get them in a run. Some new, some casual.

jedibcg wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?]

You are pro signing up on the forums. You could just join groups on the forums so you know your class. That is what you are asking people that have never played the game to do so uncertain why you would have difficulties doing it.

OK - in all seriousness, I get the frustration you’re talking about. Our core group of active members is upward of about 20... and we are constantly trying to coordinate at least 1 of each run for everyone... catch... our plus with invited friends can be an additional 5-15... or possibly more depending on who invited who... This year was the tightest I recall in a while, but everyone got the runs they needed. No - I’m not trying to tell you “do what we do” (but probably still annoying and for that I apologize in advance...). What I’m trying to say is where there’s a will there’s a way... and also what you seek - you tend to find....

The forums can be quirky, but as several have suggested, start putting out the word that you want a group not only to game with, but to participate in ticket buys with... if you haven’t met up with some of these groups or people IRL, try to. In lieu of that, and if you don’t get a response from some open forum posting (the threads under “adventuring groups form here” are a good starting point) then maybe PM a couple of the active forumites who routinely talk about their groups and ask for their help, or if you could be a part of their band...
lastly - you could expand your current “group” and form your own - again - legwork, but these are some options.

Yes a bunch of unsolicited “advice” is poor salve for a scuffed spirit - but seriously - it isn’t that we only want the new players to have fun, it’s just that many of us “old farts” in the game have accepted that part of our role is ambassador to the new players - and so we will put that bit somewhat forward on the agenda. And also - having gone through your exact struggle... we have found our own workarounds... we just don’t discuss them much - (too pedantic I guess) - but there may be others with other methods for getting secure runs with class selection ahead of time that I haven’t mentioned.

It’s a great bunch of folks - who generally want everyone to have a blast. Don’t hesitate to ask for help, and ask again and again - we’re a fickle lot on the forums sometimes - and full of wanderlust... sometimes a request goes unanswered for no other reason than a bunch of us think “eh someone else will get that” and before you know it it’s off the front page and out of sight...

Ok - I’ll shut up again.

Mike Steele wrote: You're one of the few people in favor of keeping the Level 3+ rule, I'd be curious as to your thinking of why that's a beneficial rule.

To be clear I am fine with it along as we clarify it.

I just don't feel there is a better solution on the table.

I mean class selection should be nearly completed at the event start time. Sure it can run over (any roll offs would) but the coach could start recording the classes that are firm.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: You're one of the few people in favor of keeping the Level 3+ rule, I'd be curious as to your thinking of why that's a beneficial rule.

To be clear I am fine with it along as we clarify it.

I just don't feel there is a better solution on the table.

I mean class selection should be nearly completed at the event start time. Sure it can run over (any roll offs would) but the coach could start recording the classes that are firm.

Ed

Ed, if by Event Start time we mean when players are supposed to show up to the Coaching Room, it seems like we couldn't require class selection to be over at that point because that's when some new players will think they are supposed to arrive. Or do I have Event Start Time incorrect?

Regarding Level 3+, many have thought that the better idea on the table would be to eliminate that rule so that higher Level players don't have an advantage over newer players. I was just curious why you are still in favor of that (not judging, just curious).

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Then I dont get the hp bump

there is a real easy solution to that problem...

no, i'm saying you are the one who keeps track of your HP. if you did the work to get the bonus HP and didnt get to use it because of a die-roll, then make your own decision about what to do from there...

my point is that if missing out on 1-2 HP is really causing you to lose enjoyment of this event you have spent multiple thousands of dollars on, then you can very easily fix that.

Grekel speaks truth. The community around here does a great job to taking care of it's own. It's not the most formal of systems but it all works remarkably well.

Mike Steele wrote: Regarding Level 3+, many have thought that the better idea on the table would be to eliminate that rule so that higher Level players don't have an advantage over newer players. I was just curious why you are still in favor of that (not judging, just curious).

I think whatever the rule is (Level 3+) or something else codifying it and making it available for all players in the coaching room is going to eliminate most issues. So I would be fine with keeping the current rule, flushing out the timing of when classes get locked (which I think everyone agrees needs done whatever system). You are not 'bully' someone with a rule they don't know about because it would be on the table between the character sheets.

How to choose a character class (WORK IN PROGRESS....someone with better skill of the English language can clean this up)

1. Attempt to work out class selections among the party by X time (this I think needs defined).
2. Any non conflicted classes are now set at X time.
3. Any classes which cannot be worked out among the party are determined by:
If all players wanting the conflicted class are player level 1-2 OR if all players wanting the conflicted class are player levels 3+ then those players roll off. Winning player gets conflicted class. Losing player(s) get to choice of remaining classes non-set classes. Order is determined by previous die roll(s). Ties roll again as needed.
If only 1 player wanting the conflicted class is player level 3+ they get the class. Losing player gets non-set characters. Rolling if there were other conflicted class losers.
4. Anyone arriving after X time regardless of player level chooses from non-set classes after conflicted classes resolution.

You can include verbiage about how one gets to player xp if you want. You can also include verbiage about using the True Dungeon forums to coordinate class selection in the future.

Again not saying this has to be the model or that it is the best model. I think having whatever the model is right there in front of the players is going to be the best way to reduce issues. Whatever model is came up with if it is only known among those on the forums, then there will be issues.

Mike Steele wrote: Regarding Level 3+, many have thought that the better idea on the table would be to eliminate that rule so that higher Level players don't have an advantage over newer players. I was just curious why you are still in favor of that (not judging, just curious).

Many can't agree nor can they show clear benefit. I am not attached to keeping the perk as much as the method for class selection be clearly displayed. If the many could agree on a better method I would be for it if it was clearly displayed.

Ed

MasterED wrote: Many can't agree nor can they show clear benefit. I am not attached to keeping the perk as much as the method for class selection be clearly displayed. If the many could agree on a better method I would be for it if it was clearly displayed.

Ed

Holy Guacamoley, Ed and I agree.