TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Lady Hawke wrote: I have seen the occasional party card with double classes, we have two wizards and two fighters for a reason.

Fair point, but an exceedingly rare exception.

Lady Hawke wrote: In the case of veteran vs newbie: my position is newbie should have their choice. If you have 15 runs that weekend, what is giving one or two up really going to cost you?

We cant assume that just because someone is a vet they get to run more then once a year.

Lady Hawke wrote: And for that new player, being struck down with the "I'm a veteran player so you can't play that" is just a horrible introduction to what is, and should be, a co operative game.

IMO it would suck for anyone. And to be clear I don't disagree with you, just trying to present the counter points.

I've done 9 runs now and have really enjoyed TD. I think if any policy changes are made it should be as "new player" as friendly as possible, it's the only way to build new players and grow interest.
We've had very few issues over the past couple of years but I have seen it happen a couple of times. I did give up my character once to a vet that came in later (I was not yet 3rd level). It wasn't the end of the world since I didn't have much to work with but it didn't feel great.
I think it's great when we can organize ahead of time but new players aren't usually on the forms. What happens to the one or two players that aren't on there? Is it fair for them if the group walks in after them and takes 8 of the classes?
I do believe that for logistics and consistency first-come first-served is the easiest and most fair. I do also appreciate groups that let the new guys pick first.

Lady Hawke wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Picc wrote: My point being whatever policy changes we recommend should not paint one group of players exclusively as the villains of the situation.

Sometimes unruly animals need to be reigned in, I would like to retain that ability as a "break in case of emergency" situation.

I feel like someone would just pull rank on you and it would round robin until everyone is mad. I am in favour of eliminating the 3rd level in favour of first-come first served. For disagreements that is where the coach should be able to step in and mediate. I have seen instances where "it is already written down" and so they won't switch (good), I have seen the occasional party card with double classes, we have two wizards and two fighters for a reason. And then I think most folk come here to pre-arrange classes before their run anyway as if they can, veterans that care deeply will buy the whole run.

- I outrank about 80% of the player base at Level 8. Next GC I'll be at Level 9. Most players around my level are not the types to do this so chances our if there is a jerk (which I have yet to encounter in 12 years) I'll get the class. There won't be a merry go round. Also, that is why there is a secondary roll off if the levels are equal. This 2 step process was put in place for a reason.

- I'm not into taking away earned benefits of players who put the time and money in for what appears to me, to be driven by feelings. I'm also not into it because this idea of Elitism is a bit hypocritical and a straw man argument when there are a lot, whether we like to admit it or not, Elite aspects to TD. (It's not all bad and I'm not against it or begrudge those that have things I don't. I'm just acknowledging the reality.) Why is this "perk" being singled out when there are more glaring ones that are far more noninclusive?

- What will the 3rd Level benefit be replaced with if taken away?

- Yes, a lot of groups prearrange which is always helpful but there are also a lot of pick up runs too where most Vets are willing to swap classes. This is not a rampant issue, this issue if anything, to me, comes off as virtue signaling.

Lady Hawke wrote: In the case of veteran vs newbie: my position is newbie should have their choice. If you have 15 runs that weekend, what is giving one or two up really going to cost you? And for that new player, being struck down with the "I'm a veteran player so you can't play that" is just a horrible introduction to what is, and should be, a co operative game.

While I'm all for, welcome and regularly practice being Pro Noob why are they more important/valuable than existing players and should always be given preferential treatment? Sincere question.

-Most players do not get in "15 runs", that's a very big exaggeration. The overwhelming majority of players who run multiple adventures already do switch up classes for new players and have that view that it's not a big deal.

-TD is not a cheap game to play so this idea of over accommodating new players is a bit of a slippery slope. Why bring down someone else to elevate another? Sometimes you need to earn your way. Help, teach them how to fish and be on their own your way is my position.

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: - I outrank about 80% of the player base at Level 8. Next GC I'll be at Level 9. Most players around my level are not the types to do this so chances our if there is a jerk (which I have yet to encounter in 12 years) I'll get the class. There won't be a merry go round. Also, that is why there is a secondary roll off if the levels are equal. This 2 step process was put in place for a reason.

Point of order, level doesn't matter for class selection past 3. If you are level 3+ you can pull rank on a level 1 or 2 player. If a lv 3 and a lv10 both pull rank, it still goes to a roll off.

Picc wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote: - I outrank about 80% of the player base at Level 8. Next GC I'll be at Level 9. Most players around my level are not the types to do this so chances our if there is a jerk (which I have yet to encounter in 12 years) I'll get the class. There won't be a merry go round. Also, that is why there is a secondary roll off if the levels are equal. This 2 step process was put in place for a reason.

Point of order, level doesn't matter for class selection past 3. If you are level 3+ you can pull rank on a level 1 or 2 player. If a lv 3 and a lv10 both pull rank, it still goes to a roll off.

Fair enough although very experienced coaches explain this the way I did at this years Origins. I told a story a few pages ago with the one time this came up in my 12yr TD career. We were asked our player levels and if equal it would go to the roll off. Regardless, keep the roll off. Could have been a mistake on their part in the moment.

Lady Hawke wrote:

JACKOFTRADZE wrote:

Picc wrote: My point being whatever policy changes we recommend should not paint one group of players exclusively as the villains of the situation.

Sometimes unruly animals need to be reigned in, I would like to retain that ability as a "break in case of emergency" situation.

I feel like someone would just pull rank on you and it would round robin until everyone is mad. I am in favour of eliminating the 3rd level in favour of first-come first served. For disagreements that is where the coach should be able to step in and mediate. I have seen instances where "it is already written down" and so they won't switch (good), I have seen the occasional party card with double classes, we have two wizards and two fighters for a reason. And then I think most folk come here to pre-arrange classes before their run anyway as if they can, veterans that care deeply will buy the whole run.

In the case of veteran vs newbie: my position is newbie should have their choice. If you have 15 runs that weekend, what is giving one or two up really going to cost you? And for that new player, being struck down with the "I'm a veteran player so you can't play that" is just a horrible introduction to what is, and should be, a co operative game.

I'm not disagreeing about letting new players get first choice, but it's worth mentioning not all veterans do 15 runs. Many in my group are as veteran as they come, and we only do the one convention and lately have only done one of each Dungeon, with many group members only doing a single Dungeon. Maybe that's becoming more common with the big jump in ticket prices last year.

Everyone's $80 is worth the same, whether they play once, each dungeon once, or go to multiple cons.

I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

If this is something TD wants to reward, I think they should. I suppose completion tokens could be counted here, but I would think there could be more. I'm not exactly sure what I would want to see, but it's a thought.

Ticket prices will continue to rise. It's an economic certainty.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: In over 10 years of playing TD, I can count the number of times I've seen a class choice conflict on one hand... and I'll still have two fingers left over. Is this even an issue?

Conversely, there another issue seems to impact many more new players; bag check. As someone who regularly uses the bag check, I saw dozens of new players feeling bad because they didn't want to carry their purchase-loaded bags through the dungeon and were turned away.

To the question of is this an issue, unequivocally yes. If it cannot be worked out in a fashion that is respectful of everyone and comes down to “nah I’ve played longer get lost” that is not a lesson I would like my son to learn.

I also think we’re just better than that.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Everyone's $80 is worth the same, whether they play once, each dungeon once, or go to multiple cons.

I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

If this is something TD wants to reward, I think they should. I suppose completion tokens could be counted here, but I would think there could be more. I'm not exactly sure what I would want to see, but it's a thought.

Ticket prices will continue to rise. It's an economic certainty.

Overwhelming +1 to this entire post, every point.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Everyone's $80 is worth the same, whether they play once, each dungeon once, or go to multiple cons.

I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

If this is something TD wants to reward, I think they should. I suppose completion tokens could be counted here, but I would think there could be more. I'm not exactly sure what I would want to see, but it's a thought.

I could see an incentive for multi con, and you already noted that completion tokens fit that bill a little bit. However, completion tokens seem to be a point of chaos (I did not get the Charm of the Elk that others got for E3) possibly due to having so many different cons and adventures these days? Perhaps completion tokens should be consolidated some and replaced by another multi con incentive?

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Ticket prices will continue to rise. It's an economic certainty.

My $3000 computer from 1993 would like to have a word with you about the inevitability of rising prices.

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Ticket prices will continue to rise. It's an economic certainty.

My $3000 computer from 1993 would like to have a word with you about the inevitability of rising prices.

As soon as there is competition for more than one TD producer....

Also, you could definitely spend more than that on a computer now

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Ticket prices will continue to rise. It's an economic certainty.

My $3000 computer from 1993 would like to have a word with you about the inevitability of rising prices.

As soon as there is competition for more than one TD producer....

Also, you could definitely spend more than that on a computer now

You can certainly spend more now, but you could spend more then too. Not to mention that the 93 computer was like 100mhz and my most recent one is just under 5,000mhz.

AWS compute shapes have also been dropping over time.

As TD continues to scale to additional conventions, they are getting more use out of props, sets, generating a wider base of token sales, etc. It wouldn't be impossible for run prices to drop and them to make more money than ever. I wouldn't bet anything on it, but its possible.