TOPIC: Proposed change to Free Movement

Endgame wrote:

Fred K wrote: I'd encourage the community to be more constructive in working with TD on items like this. The saving throw suggestion was a great positive suggestion and I think pretty workable.

When you have a hair shy of 2,800 unique tokens, it will be necessary to revise effects. Yes, giving a great deal of thought to making immunities/resistances in the future is wise but TD won't be perfect in that. As players, we should be flexible as well.

MtG has obsoleted decks/cards as well as had significant rules changes on multiple occasions. Yes, players invested in their old decks were frustrated but they (mostly) understood it was for the good of the game.

I think a fair observation is to try and give 5 years (arbitrary number) of effects on a token before rule changes or game changes that completely obsolete it. I can name a dozen tokens that absolutely should be nerfed or declared no longer playable either for being overpowered or too confusing that TD has erred on the side of players to let them still stay usable (gloves of flying fists, cloak of displacement, assassin's crossbow, spirit bowl, soul coffer, staff of power (application to using alertness then changing weapons), etc..)

BoLT still has a pretty massive effect (+2 saves equal to UR Ioun Stones and Charms) so I doubt people will stop using it even if it had zero freedom of movement impact. We're also talking about a token that sells for $150 to $200, not $1,000. Several UR's from the same year sell for more than the bead. We're looking at a small limit to it so we can be challenged better - I support that.

True Dungeon shouldn't be "I have the best tokens therefore I always win." Some of the best combat rooms have been ones where we were surprised by unusual effects. The druid rebounding spells at us, Loki making party members appear as opponents, Giants throwing party members at each other, etc..

I like the idea of NM+ freedom of movement meaning we get a saving throw against certain effects and others are automatically ignored.

Fred

What can be done with a nerf to FM that couldn't also be done with another effect that would also open up additional design space?

Part of the problem is that effects that FM negate come up rather frequently. Instead of tweaking FM so it can be used multiple times per year, why not expand into some of the other conditions listed in the players handbook.

For example, perhaps a room design idea / goal is such that players need to slide with their off hand, or hop on 1 foot. The initial attempt is to design is such that FM would negate it. Instead of changing FM, why not try these:

Upon entering the room, you notice there are web like strands covering it. Too late, you have identified that the webbing causes disease that causes your dominant arm to hang limply from your side. Until you can cure disease, you must slide with your non dominant hand, and Rangers/ Monks may only make 1 attack.

Or:

The room is littered with large pillars of sand. With the arrival of the gigantic sand worm, fire ants have swarmed across the floor and into your boots, and you now realize that the sand worm is somehow controlling the ants. Unless you are immune to natural insects, you must hop on 1 foot to make attacks for the duration of the room.

I understand you now - I didn't fully get it the first time. These are really good ideas. Add the "confined spaces" condition to the list as well (since it was on a bead). You can get around it often and should go in that direction.

Maybe the best path would be a bit of both - use alternate methods to achieve the same goal in the short term but also announce that freedom of movement ability will be changing in 2 years to have a saving throw rather than automatic. That gives people a good amount of use out of an item as well and is fair. We don't always expect every token we get will be BiS always. Your tanzanite cube isn't as good as the mystic orb years later. The woodie UR Greataxe isn't as good as a rare claymore with the whetstone years later. If people get use out of their cool tokens for a decent while, it isn't unreasonable to have them not be as good (or even not useful at all) later. There may be cases where something is just clearly a mistake, though. Hopefully we catch those in the review process before printing but I can definitely see it happening with how complex interplay of various tokens can get (definitely thinking wizards here.)

Fred

Fred K wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Fred K wrote: I'd encourage the community to be more constructive in working with TD on items like this. The saving throw suggestion was a great positive suggestion and I think pretty workable.

When you have a hair shy of 2,800 unique tokens, it will be necessary to revise effects. Yes, giving a great deal of thought to making immunities/resistances in the future is wise but TD won't be perfect in that. As players, we should be flexible as well.

MtG has obsoleted decks/cards as well as had significant rules changes on multiple occasions. Yes, players invested in their old decks were frustrated but they (mostly) understood it was for the good of the game.

I think a fair observation is to try and give 5 years (arbitrary number) of effects on a token before rule changes or game changes that completely obsolete it. I can name a dozen tokens that absolutely should be nerfed or declared no longer playable either for being overpowered or too confusing that TD has erred on the side of players to let them still stay usable (gloves of flying fists, cloak of displacement, assassin's crossbow, spirit bowl, soul coffer, staff of power (application to using alertness then changing weapons), etc..)

BoLT still has a pretty massive effect (+2 saves equal to UR Ioun Stones and Charms) so I doubt people will stop using it even if it had zero freedom of movement impact. We're also talking about a token that sells for $150 to $200, not $1,000. Several UR's from the same year sell for more than the bead. We're looking at a small limit to it so we can be challenged better - I support that.

True Dungeon shouldn't be "I have the best tokens therefore I always win." Some of the best combat rooms have been ones where we were surprised by unusual effects. The druid rebounding spells at us, Loki making party members appear as opponents, Giants throwing party members at each other, etc..

I like the idea of NM+ freedom of movement meaning we get a saving throw against certain effects and others are automatically ignored.

Fred

What can be done with a nerf to FM that couldn't also be done with another effect that would also open up additional design space?

Part of the problem is that effects that FM negate come up rather frequently. Instead of tweaking FM so it can be used multiple times per year, why not expand into some of the other conditions listed in the players handbook.

For example, perhaps a room design idea / goal is such that players need to slide with their off hand, or hop on 1 foot. The initial attempt is to design is such that FM would negate it. Instead of changing FM, why not try these:

Upon entering the room, you notice there are web like strands covering it. Too late, you have identified that the webbing causes disease that causes your dominant arm to hang limply from your side. Until you can cure disease, you must slide with your non dominant hand, and Rangers/ Monks may only make 1 attack.

Or:

The room is littered with large pillars of sand. With the arrival of the gigantic sand worm, fire ants have swarmed across the floor and into your boots, and you now realize that the sand worm is somehow controlling the ants. Unless you are immune to natural insects, you must hop on 1 foot to make attacks for the duration of the room.

I understand you now - I didn't fully get it the first time. These are really good ideas. Add the "confined spaces" condition to the list as well (since it was on a bead). You can get around it often and should go in that direction.

Maybe the best path would be a bit of both - use alternate methods to achieve the same goal in the short term but also announce that freedom of movement ability will be changing in 2 years to have a saving throw rather than automatic. That gives people a good amount of use out of an item as well and is fair. We don't always expect every token we get will be BiS always. Your tanzanite cube isn't as good as the mystic orb years later. The woodie UR Greataxe isn't as good as a rare claymore with the whetstone years later. If people get use out of their cool tokens for a decent while, it isn't unreasonable to have them not be as good (or even not useful at all) later. There may be cases where something is just clearly a mistake, though. Hopefully we catch those in the review process before printing but I can definitely see it happening with how complex interplay of various tokens can get (definitely thinking wizards here.)

Fred

I think we actually want to avoid creep as much as possible, and to a certain extent we’re doing OK. The Topaz Trilliant is still better than than later non PYP releases (ex: mystic orb without skull or tanzanite cube). That is a different discussion though.

To continue the FM discussion in a parallel ability, should 100% hit vs incorporeal be changed as well to not be 100%? We’ve seen at least one combat in VTD where we had Ethereal and not incorporeal. Personally, I’d hate to see 100% vs incorporeal nerfed - TPTB could achieve the same goal as a nerf there by using more invisible than just leaning on incorporeal so much.

I'm happy to hear TD eyeing a more interactive and fun dungeon for all.

As a player, one of the must frustrating things in TD is thinking you have a token that does X, and being told the dungeon module trumps your token. For example, being told you are taking "special magical fire" damage that can't be resisted with fire resistant things, or that being hit with magma causes "lava damage" not "fire damage."

With that in mind, I would not limit Free Movement along magical / non-magical means, as people will feel bummed that their thing-that-prevents-them-getting-stuck-in-the-web-spell doesn't prevent them from getting stuck in a mundane web.

So I'd just pick some effects to remain immune, and others to remove from the effect, e.g.:

* Free Movement makes you immune to: Webbing, grappling, and construction.
* Free Movement has no interaction with: Hold, slow, underwater, forced levitation, quicksand, grease spell or slippery floors, etc.

As an alternative, make "free movement" analogous to Evasion:

1. All free-movement inhibiting effects would require a save, and do:
* Minor bad thing if you pass the save
* Major bad thing if you fail the save

2. Then, free movement could alter the result of a passed save to "no effect" rather than "minor bad thing" on a passed save.

This would also open the door for "Superior Free-est Movement" which would function like Improved Evasion: No effect on a passed save, minor bad thing on a failed save.

If this approach was followed, I would consider giving Rogues a built in Free Movement on 4th level cards in the next redesign.

This second approach is more appealing to me personally, as I like to make save checks - it is part of the fun to me.

I'm not in favor of changing free movement in anyway. Some people Like to have tokens that negate environmental effects, that's why they buy the tokens in the first place.

This medallion makes you immune to posion, ok I'll wear if for a few years. Hey theres finally some posion, but its magic posion so it doesnt work.

This shirt makes you immune to spiders, hey it's the under dark so I'll wear it since that's how I want to engage with the dungeon, oops magic spider so it doesnt work.

These boots let you walk on water, spirits in the water attack you. This combo let's you cross lava, ugh ok fine but you lost the treasure stamp since you didnt engage with the puzzle, and so on and so on.

I'm honestly a little fed up with it. This kind of thing rarely feels good from the players side (though I'm sure some on here will defend it)

IMO free movement doesnt stop you from designing puzzles with movement impairments, negating movement impairments is one of the few places where players get to feel good for equipping a token that doesnt just effect the stat line.

I wouldn't recommend taking that feeling away from players who want it. There are precious few other places where players get to feel their own agency in the dungeon recently as it is.

Maybe the needed fix is to have more creative ways to slow or hinder the players? Not exactly sure what it would look like but there have to be ways to put a party at a disadvantage.

My sense is that there are themes that can easily be represented by mechanics that exist but aren't worth bothering because they won't have much impact on the targeted players.

There are plenty of ways to mechanically disadvantage players that aren't as thematic.

Then, what Picc is getting at is the general idea that tokens should do something. We know +damage does something. But, if all the game is about is how much damage you deal, what's remotely interesting about that? Now, the game isn't entirely about maxing out damage, at least not if playing at a level that's challenging for one's collection, but, by reducing the value of tokens that do things besides increase damage output, reducing build diversity.

There's also the concept that the challenge level is pretty much up to the players ... after the players hit a certain level of token collection. Sure, starter pack play is at the whims of how hard Normal is, but someone with "Nightmare" level collection could play Normal or Hardcore to modulate the difficulty level to fit desired experience. Having tokens that bypass challenges in an absolute sense is not practically different than doing a Hardcore run with bunch of Eldritch and legendaries that pump up combat stats. What it is is different.

I ran Medallion of Greyhawk in VTD5 to bypass save or die. It didn't work**. Medallion of Greyhawk could have been Medallion of Valhalla or whatever instead. Why have tokens that don't do things? It's like why have character abilities that don't do things - Detect Evil, Remove Disease, some non-paladin ability?

** By the time I had the right combination of effects to bypass save or die on a build (I did for someone else), the Death Knight was destroyed in less than three rounds ...

Thus my desire to get rid of Eldritch. I couldn't care less if SRoEC or polymorphing reduces someone's damage by 10, including in puzzle rooms. Can even include "tech" below the Eldritch/legendary/relic level actually doing something useful because of two things: it's not just situational, someone is giving up something for these counters in almost all cases. Lucky Traveler is currently, largely an exception as it doesn't have critical mass on slot competition, but, as various people have brought up, that's changing.

Consider how vastly more interesting it is when puzzles do sonic damage or Darkrift or even mechanical trap damage.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Ramsildor wrote: The word NERF comes to mind when I read all of this. It also brings to mind when the first time the Supreme Rings were created...Eldritch Damage showed up the same year. If you really want me to stop chasing crafting items this is a good way to start the process. I will say the same thing that I say quite often...make a rule book and live within in it. Nerfing my tokens that I worked for and why I do multiple runs for at every event, will definitely make me reconsider the time and expenditure for those efforts. If you want to do something positive go back and address the number of URs that have become little more than defunct over the last decades power curve creep.

all of this

One of my best friends, that played True Dungeon every year, quit permanently because he was so upset that the tokens that I bought the group were so often not being allowed to function in rooms. I think in that particular Dungeon there were multiple rooms where melee weapons were useless, along with all the tokens bought to enhance that melee damage.

I know it's hard to put the genie back into the bottle for printed tokens, like Free Movement, but maybe it's time for True Dungeon to be really intentional about no longer printing tokens that let players avoid Dungeon damage / hindrances. Just looking at the 2022 set, there are tokens at C/U/R levels that let players ignore all underwater hindrances (several at the Rare level), as well as tokens that remove charm, negate critical and sneak attack immunities, and a Scroll that removes Curse, Disease, Fear, Hold, Paralyzation, and Petrification. Those are all Dungeon challenges that players can avoid completely via tokens. Maybe it would be more fun to not print tokens like that, and make players deal with those challenges during the course of the adventure.

+1

Picc wrote: I'm honestly a little fed up with it. This kind of thing rarely feels good from the players side (though I'm sure some on here will defend it)

IMO free movement doesnt stop you from designing puzzles with movement impairments, negating movement impairments is one of the few places where players get to feel good for equipping a token that doesnt just effect the stat line.

I wouldn't recommend taking that feeling away from players who want it. There are precious few other places where players get to feel their own agency in the dungeon recently as it is.

Absolutely! Fun is for the player and there is no better fun than outsmarting the dungeon. Don’t take the DM role such that we worry the DM has no fun. Further if the “effect” is desired by the group, they can just run again without FA.

To chime in on “must nerf”, I like the rolled save chance for FA nerf activating like improved evasion if the path is taken

I would also suggest some fun ideas outside of the FA thing. Maybe a new thread to provide for Dazed, Confused, blinded, weakened, shakened, etc

I might be wrong (it happens), but I don't think the word "constriction" appears on any of the Free Movement tokens or in their TDB descriptions. The Belt of Freedom protects only from constriction and in its description it says the Free Movement tokens protect from constriction, but I don't know if this was always the case, or if it was added later.

There are 4+ wordings for Free Movement in the PHB and DMG (this should probably be fixed). Some say constriction, some don't. A wonder if constriction was added either for the Belt of Freedom or for the sub-class Warden? While I too do NOT like changing established rulings, maybe constriction could be made a separate ability.

I would say that if it helps make a better dungeon, then change free movement rules...BUT, to help against the feel bad for people who use those items, make sure to ALSO include something that free movement still helps against. For example, maybe one room has natural webs that hinder movement that free movement no longer helps against, then you have a later fight where the monster uses a magical web spell that free movement DOES protect from.

kurtreznor wrote: I would say that if it helps make a better dungeon, then change free movement rules...BUT, to help against the feel bad for people who use those items, make sure to ALSO include something that free movement still helps against. For example, maybe one room has natural webs that hinder movement that free movement no longer helps against, then you have a later fight where the monster uses a magical web spell that free movement DOES protect from.

Honestly, I'd probably hate to go through a dungeon where 2 of the 7 rooms have movement hindrances. That would likely feel somewhat repetitive.

kurtreznor wrote: I would say that if it helps make a better dungeon, then change free movement rules...BUT, to help against the feel bad for people who use those items, make sure to ALSO include something that free movement still helps against. For example, maybe one room has natural webs that hinder movement that free movement no longer helps against, then you have a later fight where the monster uses a magical web spell that free movement DOES protect from.

That would have people without FM getting stuck in webs in two rooms of a Dungeon, which they might not enjoy.

If FM is going to be restricted, I'd recommend letting it work against non-magical things like spider webs and heavy vegetation and have it not work against magical things like hold spells.