TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Dave wrote:
This is my fear. If it goes too far and the game takes a downturn, it may never recover. And then all those farmers are left holding worthless tokens. So I think we all have an interest in making sure the game remains popular and thriving. Within reason I'm sure ghosting has minimal effect. But who decides what's within reason?

I propose a committee of Brad and Mike, with Jeff to break ties

In other words, it's all up to Jeff

Probably true, in the end it's always all up to Jeff - but hey Brad, we have had some areas of agreement recently. Who knows, maybe you and I would have been able to come up with a solution we both agreed on.

jedibcg wrote: @Matt my point was Forar was saying multiple people were offering free tickets. Multiple people may be doing it but I am the only saying I am doing it.

I gave that as an example of considerations. I wasn't implying a wave of people doing it, or at least I didn't intend to.

@Forar seems like you are concerned about the number of bodies going through the dungeon but don't like players getting tickets into the of those without tickets through this forum and the Gen Con forum. I am having trouble reconciling the two.

There is an existing method to get tickets, which is already notoriously difficult at times, so I find players declaring that they will be buying up distribution rights to multiple runs as something that impacts that existing mechanic. As I have said several times; one person doing it isn't an issue, a bunch of people (say our current number) doing it probably isn't a big issue, how far are we from that tipping point? 100 people buy out 4 runs apiece, they now control half of the runs for Gencon. Which is to extrapolate to an extreme, but the point I'm trying to make is that I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion that a substantial portion of the tickets might not even end up in general circulation if too many people are buying out full runs and then parceling them out after the fact. Gencon has a ticketing system for a reason, part of that is making things available to everyone. Having to join forums and 'know the right people' and whatnot detracts from that. Pretty sure between the various team building people who have spoken up in this thread alone we've covered well over 100 tickets between a small handful of people.

I'm not saying it's actively an issue, I'm saying that having a handful of people in this single thread speak up to comment on holding down multiple runs, PLUS the notion that others may want to buy out runs that NOBODY goes on for treasure farming, PLUS double down runs, PLUS solo challenges, etc, seems like they could add up in a way that is directly counter productive to the desired goal of getting more people playing the game that the increase in slots was supposed to provide.

I'm pointing out that the Supply part is small enough that just a handful more players doing exactly this could have a larger impact, especially when considering the original topic of people buying runs out for 1 or 0 player treasure farming.

I'm not saying "these people are BAD AND WRONG for doing this!" (buying for family/friends, personal preference, etc) I'm saying "uh, guys, I'm seeing a possible unintended consequence of the popularity of buying out runs, thoughts?"

*sigh* Perhaps responding to so many points/posts in one shot was my mistake, but I feel like this one small issue that is tangential to the larger point that Raven brought up is sidetracking things.

So I'm sorry, this has gone on long enough, I thus strike from the record any commentary about free runs. Apparently I hit a nerve and as I've said repeatedly, it was a *part* of my notes/thoughts, not the crux of what I had to say.

Edit: edited to remove a point I wasn't making as cogently as I liked.

I mean, we've had 2 pages going over one tiny line of a larger post. How about this section that has nothing to do with run slots?

"The idea of making the treasure mix 'worse' to combat farming is something that isn't quite sitting right with me. Again, speaking as a newer player, the idea of having decent odds at pulling something *good* with my 4 token draws (or whatever they may be) is appealing. The notion that it's too good/lucrative and thus should be made worse simply because some people/groups are pulling hundreds of tokens is a bit disheartening. Hearing that there might be yet another treasure enhancer coming would conceivably only compound the matter. I get that they're a great way to drive token sales, but is it sustainable? Is it not counterproductive? If people drawing 19(or whatever the current theoretical max is) tokens is a problem now, how about in a few years when people are drawing 22 or 25 or 30? Do we need to keep making the mix worse to account for "_____ running with 9 ghosts/retainers/warm bodies and drawing 250-300 tokens at once"? Do we need to keep making the loot mix (on average) worse to account for a small portion of the user base?"

Apparently there's another treasure enhancer coming as part of a string of them. People are complaining about the loot being 'too good' and 'too valuable', and yet TE's are noted as a strong draw for purchases, making them part of the business model, but to combat getting more stuff the suggestion is to make the draws less likely to be valuable. People are suggesting a solution to combat a problem of their own making, in a manner.

So, to tie back to the initial concerns about farming runs, how we make that gel? Does the loot distribution have to get 'worse' every time a new TE is made?

And frankly, this is predicated on the financial value of what is pulled, meaning we're suggesting game/logistics changes based on the secondary market. If TD sees an explosion of interest that drives demand up, should they drop the value of the treasure box proportionally?

The TD system is different from the standard GenCon ticketing system. TD negotiated that difference. It's an intentional design choice.

It is the existing method for TD at GenCon. And WYC. And GHC.

Harlax wrote: The TD system is different from the standard GenCon ticketing system. TD negotiated that difference. It's an intentional design choice.

It is the existing method for TD at GenCon. And WYC. And GHC.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

@Forar - you bring up a lot of things that others have on the Lords & Ladies forum.

To come to a consensus on a solution, we first have to come to a consensus on the problem. And, to do that, we have to have consensus that there IS a problem.

We're still stuck on step one.

Well I'm glad I'm in good company there. Should make for interesting reading through those topics when I gain access to that forum... In 2028 when I have enough exp, that is. :-P

Forar wrote:

Harlax wrote: The TD system is different from the standard GenCon ticketing system. TD negotiated that difference. It's an intentional design choice.

It is the existing method for TD at GenCon. And WYC. And GHC.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

As I understand it,, for most events, GenCon has a limit on the number of tickets you can buy. TD has negotiated a variance of that to allow the purchase of full runs.


To sum up the discussion happening in Lords and Ladies.

1. The proliferation of treasure enhancing tokens may create an economic incentive to buy up runs for the treasure pulls.

2. If so there is a number of pulls that represent a tipping point. That tipping point may be different at WYC and GHC as the cost of a ticket at those Con's is lower.

3. If we reach that tipping point, people may buy up runs and "ghost" the other 9 slots thereby sucking up spots that otherwise would go to real players.

There was significant disagreement on each item in this list.


I don't recall any concern about the purchase of runs for premade groups or for forum recruiting.

Harlax wrote:

Forar wrote:

Harlax wrote: The TD system is different from the standard GenCon ticketing system. TD negotiated that difference. It's an intentional design choice.

It is the existing method for TD at GenCon. And WYC. And GHC.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

As I understand it,, for most events, GenCon has a limit on the number of tickets you can buy. TD has negotiated a variance of that to allow the purchase of full runs.

That's right.

For Gen Con a single badge can buy up to 2 tickets per event. You can buy additional tickets if you've linked the accounts with the friends / family feature, but doing so allows you to completely override the second badge's eligibility to register for events that conflict with the ones you've booked in their name under your account.

True Dungeon is the exception, where individuals can purchase up to 10 tickets (an entire run) per event.


So: the ability to buy out an entire adventure is a special concession made to True Dungeon by Gen Con, and not a fluke, accident, or overlooked loophole.

I never said it was unintended or a loophole.

I feel people are talking to points I'm either making less than clearly, or that I'm not making at all.

As I've said like four times now, the notion of someone buying out a run due to preference (double downs, solo challenge, whatever), to control the party, whatever, is not something I'm concerned about. If dozens of people end up doing this, however, that becomes a potential challenge. If Treasure Runs and Double Downs and other "less than 10 player" choices, that defeats the entire purpose of increasing the players per run count. Buying out runs is a tangent to that tangent; *in aggregate*, the runs being bought out reduce the tickets available to the general population. People have commented here that runs do get missed from time to time, but obviously without an accurate count from behind the scenes we can only guess what the overall impact actually is (nor do I expect us to actually have these numbers).

Whether or not this is or will impact TD's business model remains to be seen, but I'm feeling a bit dogpiled here for simply raising a point of contention that seemed tangential to the original topic; people buying out runs simply to farm treasure. This reduces the number of people who get to play, especially if done heavily (as some posters here have postulated being able to do cost effectively).

Poor choices of phrasing or words aside, I think I've been pretty damned clear in that regard; I'm not speaking ill of Raven not wanting too many people in her space or someone buying a run to set up family and friends, simply noting that *in total*, if hundreds or more slots are being taken up in these various projects, even if the money in to TD remains the same, there is the potential for larger impact.

Being able to buy a run isn't a problem. Being able to buy 4 or 10 runs probably isn't a problem. Ten or twenty or fifty people buying 4-10 runs could be a problem.

Edit: for the record, I did try to walk away from this topic and move to another point of discussion.

A point that curiously nobody seems willing to address. Except, apparently, in the closed subforum, that is.

Sometimes we wind up talking past each other in these forums.

Perhaps this is one of those times.


In any case, if loot farming is a threat, I think it would be more feasible at WYC or GHC where Friday runs have tended to have many unsold slots. At least to this point.

Harlax wrote:

Forar wrote:

Harlax wrote: The TD system is different from the standard GenCon ticketing system. TD negotiated that difference. It's an intentional design choice.

It is the existing method for TD at GenCon. And WYC. And GHC.

I'm afraid I'm not following you here.

As I understand it,, for most events, GenCon has a limit on the number of tickets you can buy. TD has negotiated a variance of that to allow the purchase of full runs.


To sum up the discussion happening in Lords and Ladies.

1. The proliferation of treasure enhancing tokens may create an economic incentive to buy up runs for the treasure pulls.

2. If so there is a number of pulls that represent a tipping point. That tipping point may be different at WYC and GHC as the cost of a ticket at those Con's is lower.

3. If we reach that tipping point, people may buy up runs and "ghost" the other 9 slots thereby sucking up spots that otherwise would go to real players.

There was significant disagreement on each item in this list.


I don't recall any concern about the purchase of runs for premade groups or for forum recruiting.

There was a concern that people would buy up runs and fill them with people that had no interest in True Dungeon but were just there as "mules" to get the main person treasure coins. I was skeptical that there was a large pool of people available to spend hours of their time doing something they had little interest in so someone else could get extra treasure coins.