TOPIC: Ghosting proposal for smaller conventions

Picc wrote: Honestly I think the ghosting issue at Gencon might be slightly overblown. I was a full time coach again this year and I saw exactly 2 party cards with ghosts on them (one group was doing a double down, the other had 2 friends who didn't show up), and honestly thats not significantly reduced from last year. I also coached at GHC last year and there was lots of runs that were just unsold. Maybe I missed seeing how bad it was at Origins but from my perspective it seems like were making a mountain out of a mole hill. Just my two cents.

I agree it likely wasn't too bad at GenCon. That of course wasn't really my original concern, although I can get behind further limits of ghosting at GenCon. Personally I ghosted 6 slots at GenCon. One was a no-show, the other five were a 5-man run.

The biggest problem I have is seeing all of the unused slots and runs at the smaller conventions. I realize that is lost revenue for TD and a missed opportunity for challenge runs.

One of my favorite runs was a 3-man run we did at WYC. We did it because there were completely empty runs so we just grabbed one and had fun. Now that can't happen.

And how many ghosts was that, Mike? We cut the number of ghosts per party from nine to five, and yet we sold out hella fast. How did that happen if ghosts were the problem?

And how much will next year's demand drop due to GenCon 51, satellite cons, and Rothfuss-less-ness of the adventures?

Was 2017 a perfect storm one-off, or a trend?

And how would such a draconian policy affect ticket sales? Are people going to risk buying as many no-refund tickets or hope for wait list and all the chaos that ensues?

In short, is this poorly-defined problem going to go away on its own?

I don't know. That's why I ask. Neither do you. You're assuming a problem, assuming a cause, assuming a trend, and assuming a solution without considering, or at least minimizing the consequences for innocents.

I'm opposed to any restrictions or penalties on ghosts that don't equally affect humans, mercenaries, and zombies (people who walk through the adventure while their ZombieMaster buys their ticket and keeps all their loot). (Let's not re-debate how zombies are different from ghosts. They aren't IMO. They take spots from people who want to play and give them to people who aren't motivated enough to buy their own ticket. That, or they are thinly disguised ghosts. You disagree. The end.) Since you can't tell the difference, you either treat everyone like humans or you treat everyone like crap. Anything else is unfair.

There are big changes being proposed, on the heels of another recent change, with almost no data to support it - at least we don't have any other than sellout. Jeff might, and I'm glad he is more deliberative.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Honestly I think the ghosting issue at Gencon might be slightly overblown. I was a full time coach again this year and I saw exactly 2 party cards with ghosts on them (one group was doing a double down, the other had 2 friends who didn't show up), and honestly thats not significantly reduced from last year. I also coached at GHC last year and there was lots of runs that were just unsold. Maybe I missed seeing how bad it was at Origins but from my perspective it seems like were making a mountain out of a mole hill. Just my two cents.

I agree it likely wasn't too bad at GenCon. That of course wasn't really my original concern, although I can get behind further limits of ghosting at GenCon. Personally I ghosted 6 slots at GenCon. One was a no-show, the other five were a 5-man run.

The biggest problem I have is seeing all of the unused slots and runs at the smaller conventions. I realize that is lost revenue for TD and a missed opportunity for challenge runs.

One of my favorite runs was a 3-man run we did at WYC. We did it because there were completely empty runs so we just grabbed one and had fun. Now that can't happen.

it can still happen. if there is an empty run, you just buy the 3 tickets...

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Honestly I think the ghosting issue at Gencon might be slightly overblown. I was a full time coach again this year and I saw exactly 2 party cards with ghosts on them (one group was doing a double down, the other had 2 friends who didn't show up), and honestly thats not significantly reduced from last year. I also coached at GHC last year and there was lots of runs that were just unsold. Maybe I missed seeing how bad it was at Origins but from my perspective it seems like were making a mountain out of a mole hill. Just my two cents.

I agree it likely wasn't too bad at GenCon. That of course wasn't really my original concern, although I can get behind further limits of ghosting at GenCon. Personally I ghosted 6 slots at GenCon. One was a no-show, the other five were a 5-man run.

The biggest problem I have is seeing all of the unused slots and runs at the smaller conventions. I realize that is lost revenue for TD and a missed opportunity for challenge runs.

One of my favorite runs was a 3-man run we did at WYC. We did it because there were completely empty runs so we just grabbed one and had fun. Now that can't happen.

it can still happen. if there is an empty run, you just buy the 3 tickets...

Yup, but we did this a few days in advance. If you only buy 3 there is a decent chance a ticket is bought by somebody else which ruins your challenge run. If you do it very last minute then perhaps you can get away with it.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And how many ghosts was that, Mike? We cut the number of ghosts per party from nine to five, and yet we sold out hella fast. How did that happen if ghosts were the problem?

And how much will next year's demand drop due to GenCon 51, satellite cons, and Rothfuss-less-ness of the adventures?

Was 2017 a perfect storm one-off, or a trend?

And how would such a draconian policy affect ticket sales? Are people going to risk buying as many no-refund tickets or hope for wait list and all the chaos that ensues?

In short, is this poorly-defined problem going to go away on its own?

I don't know. That's why I ask. Neither do you. You're assuming a problem, assuming a cause, assuming a trend, and assuming a solution without considering, or at least minimizing the consequences for innocents.

I'm opposed to any restrictions or penalties on ghosts that don't equally affect humans, mercenaries, and zombies (people who walk through the adventure while their ZombieMaster buys their ticket and keeps all their loot). (Let's not re-debate how zombies are different from ghosts. They aren't IMO. They take spots from people who want to play and give them to people who aren't motivated enough to buy their own ticket. That, or they are thinly disguised ghosts. You disagree. The end.) Since you can't tell the difference, you either treat everyone like humans or you treat everyone like crap. Anything else is unfair.

There are big changes being proposed, on the heels of another recent change, with almost no data to support it - at least we don't have any other than sellout. Jeff might, and I'm glad he is more deliberative.

Can we bring the focus back to non-gencon events? This discussion started as a suggestion for the non-gencon events to allow partial treasure ghosts. Currently, they ban ghosting completely. So, is a loot cap at least a step in the right direction for these cons? Do you think unlimited ghosting should be allowed at small cons?

Oh I thought of something else. There are two ways to farm runs for profit. One is to use ghosts. Another is to use actual people. The current solution of banning ghosting only stops one way.

In summary, banning ghosting at smaller conventions fails to stop farming by real people taking advantage of cheap ticket prices, while simultaneously causing a number of negative side-effects:

• Reduces ticket revenue for True Dungeon
• Penalizes a ticket purchaser who has a player not show up
• Makes challenge runs unreasonably expensive
• Encourages challenge runs to be done at GenCon, where there are actual real players who would like to play instead

The only positive aspect of the current ghosting ban at smaller conventions is it stops one type of farming (those who farm with ghosts).

Conversely, a loot cap at smaller conventions (e.g. 10 draws) makes *both* kinds of farming less profitable and has none of the drawbacks listed above. So it accomplishes the primary goal more effectively and with fewer (I'd argue none) negative side effects.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Picc wrote: Honestly I think the ghosting issue at Gencon might be slightly overblown. I was a full time coach again this year and I saw exactly 2 party cards with ghosts on them (one group was doing a double down, the other had 2 friends who didn't show up), and honestly thats not significantly reduced from last year. I also coached at GHC last year and there was lots of runs that were just unsold. Maybe I missed seeing how bad it was at Origins but from my perspective it seems like were making a mountain out of a mole hill. Just my two cents.

I agree it likely wasn't too bad at GenCon. That of course wasn't really my original concern, although I can get behind further limits of ghosting at GenCon. Personally I ghosted 6 slots at GenCon. One was a no-show, the other five were a 5-man run.

The biggest problem I have is seeing all of the unused slots and runs at the smaller conventions. I realize that is lost revenue for TD and a missed opportunity for challenge runs.

One of my favorite runs was a 3-man run we did at WYC. We did it because there were completely empty runs so we just grabbed one and had fun. Now that can't happen.

it can still happen. if there is an empty run, you just buy the 3 tickets...

Yup.

Look. The only FAIR way to make ghosting unprofitable for farmers and zombie masters is to make it unprofitable for everyone. Many refuse to do that, and insist on trying to discriminate against one without affecting themselves. That means we end up penalizing people who don't deserve to get screwed over even more than they have been when their friends bailed on them.

And yeah, I did that to some people this year. I had five tickets in my hand waiting for a PM run that happened in the AM. Luckily everything worked out, other than the crushing disappointment I caused, but under all of these proposals I'd have gotten even more screwed over than I was.

So, seriously, can everyone just CTFO about this alleged "ghost apocalypse" and be sure it's really a problem before we get medieval on people wearing more than one wristband?

@kurt - fine. No, I don't think anyone should be able to prebuy nine ghosts. But back to my fairness argument - the loot mix should be proportional to the ticket cost. Water the mix down with extra uncommon so that it's equally unprofitable for everyone. Or, put a 10-treasure cap on everyone. Rationing tickets and treating humans/ghosts/zombies differently is grossly unfair and will just encourage gaming the system. Fix the root (19 treasure is worth way more than $42) and you fix the problem without lots of rules. Like caps. Did I mention I hate caps?

Kirk Bauer wrote: Oh I thought of something else. There are two ways to farm runs for profit. One is to use ghosts. Another is to use actual people. The current solution of banning ghosting only stops one way.

In summary, banning ghosting at smaller conventions fails to stop farming by real people taking advantage of cheap ticket prices, while simultaneously causing a number of negative side-effects:

• Reduces ticket revenue for True Dungeon
• Penalizes a ticket purchaser who has a player not show up
• Makes challenge runs unreasonably expensive
• Encourages challenge runs to be done at GenCon, where there are actual real players who would like to play instead

The only positive aspect of the current ghosting ban at smaller conventions is it stops one type of farming (those who farm with ghosts).

Conversely, a loot cap at smaller conventions (e.g. 10 draws) makes *both* kinds of farming less profitable and has none of the drawbacks listed above. So it accomplishes the primary goal more effectively and with fewer (I'd argue none) negative side effects.

using actual people at the smaller cons, could get them hooked into playing. That is why some people still by the whole slot and bring newbies free of charge. I know a few did at origins. The "new" players liked it. Some I actually saw come back through later without the ticket buyer(they went and bought another ticket on their own)

Kirk Bauer wrote: Oh I thought of something else. There are two ways to farm runs for profit. One is to use ghosts. Another is to use actual people. The current solution of banning ghosting only stops one way.

In summary, banning ghosting at smaller conventions fails to stop farming by real people taking advantage of cheap ticket prices, while simultaneously causing a number of negative side-effects:

• Reduces ticket revenue for True Dungeon
• Penalizes a ticket purchaser who has a player not show up
• Makes challenge runs unreasonably expensive
• Encourages challenge runs to be done at GenCon, where there are actual real players who would like to play instead

The only positive aspect of the current ghosting ban at smaller conventions is it stops one type of farming (those who farm with ghosts).

Conversely, a loot cap at smaller conventions (e.g. 10 draws) makes *both* kinds of farming less profitable and has none of the drawbacks listed above. So it accomplishes the primary goal more effectively and with fewer (I'd argue none) negative side effects.

I talked about how easy it is to get bodies last year....that said.

Has Jeff said he has a problem with GHC not being full year 1 or 2? If not then why are we attempting to 'fix' a problem Jeff hasn't identified? If Jeff is worried about ticket sales I would imagine he would ask for ideas. at present it looks like we are just rehashing stuff for no real reason.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And how many ghosts was that, Mike? We cut the number of ghosts per party from nine to five, and yet we sold out hella fast. How did that happen if ghosts were the problem?

And how much will next year's demand drop due to GenCon 51, satellite cons, and Rothfuss-less-ness of the adventures?

Was 2017 a perfect storm one-off, or a trend?

And how would such a draconian policy affect ticket sales? Are people going to risk buying as many no-refund tickets or hope for wait list and all the chaos that ensues?

In short, is this poorly-defined problem going to go away on its own?

I don't know. That's why I ask. Neither do you. You're assuming a problem, assuming a cause, assuming a trend, and assuming a solution without considering, or at least minimizing the consequences for innocents.

I'm opposed to any restrictions or penalties on ghosts that don't equally affect humans, mercenaries, and zombies (people who walk through the adventure while their ZombieMaster buys their ticket and keeps all their loot). (Let's not re-debate how zombies are different from ghosts. They aren't IMO. They take spots from people who want to play and give them to people who aren't motivated enough to buy their own ticket. That, or they are thinly disguised ghosts. You disagree. The end.) Since you can't tell the difference, you either treat everyone like humans or you treat everyone like crap. Anything else is unfair.

There are big changes being proposed, on the heels of another recent change, with almost no data to support it - at least we don't have any other than sellout. Jeff might, and I'm glad he is more deliberative.

Demand at GENCON for True Dungeon is clearly much higher than supply, and seems to be trending more in that direction. No matter how many tickets were sold to ghosts, to me it seems better for True Dungeon if those tickets had been sold to people instead, possibly expanding the player base.

I understand that there are varied opinions on this.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And how many ghosts was that, Mike? We cut the number of ghosts per party from nine to five, and yet we sold out hella fast. How did that happen if ghosts were the problem?

And how much will next year's demand drop due to GenCon 51, satellite cons, and Rothfuss-less-ness of the adventures?

Was 2017 a perfect storm one-off, or a trend?

And how would such a draconian policy affect ticket sales? Are people going to risk buying as many no-refund tickets or hope for wait list and all the chaos that ensues?

In short, is this poorly-defined problem going to go away on its own?

I don't know. That's why I ask. Neither do you. You're assuming a problem, assuming a cause, assuming a trend, and assuming a solution without considering, or at least minimizing the consequences for innocents.

I'm opposed to any restrictions or penalties on ghosts that don't equally affect humans, mercenaries, and zombies (people who walk through the adventure while their ZombieMaster buys their ticket and keeps all their loot). (Let's not re-debate how zombies are different from ghosts. They aren't IMO. They take spots from people who want to play and give them to people who aren't motivated enough to buy their own ticket. That, or they are thinly disguised ghosts. You disagree. The end.) Since you can't tell the difference, you either treat everyone like humans or you treat everyone like crap. Anything else is unfair.

There are big changes being proposed, on the heels of another recent change, with almost no data to support it - at least we don't have any other than sellout. Jeff might, and I'm glad he is more deliberative.

Demand at GENCON for True Dungeon is clearly much higher than supply, and seems to be trending more in that direction. No matter how many tickets were sold to ghosts, to me it seems better for True Dungeon if those tickets had been sold to people instead, possibly expanding the player base.

I understand that there are varied opinions on this.

No, I agree 100%. Always have. I know we all have the same goal in mind.

Where we disagree is (1) do we have to do something NOW, (2) what, and (3) who has to pay the price of reining in ghosts and zombies.

The problem is we don't have good data, so everyone is guessing

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: using actual people at the smaller cons, could get them hooked into playing. That is why some people still by the whole slot and bring newbies free of charge. I know a few did at origins. The "new" players liked it. Some I actually saw come back through later without the ticket buyer(they went and bought another ticket on their own)

^^THIS!!!

I do this every year at GenCon. This year I added 19 new players into our pool. (one spouse that didn't get to go on our run .. but wanted to) These were people who couldn't get tickets (22 minute sell out .. seriously .. what new player is going to understand THAT?!), and were more than happy enough to try the game for free. *EVERY* single one told me they would play next year if they could get tickets. (One group worked so well together, they are already *organizing* for next year!) I really work on organizing them ahead of time, and making sure *everyone* gets to participate and has a good time. I saw *EVERY* single player from my two 'noob' (zombie?) runs last year in the dungeon this year .. most of them made it a point to say hi, and introduce me to people *they* dragged into an adventure.

I'm going to be atypically blunt here :

I spent $1240 on tickets for total strangers this year. (that doesn't include the cost of tokens I bought from people in this thread to tweak builds for these runs.) I also gave away at least 50 or 60 rare and uncommon tokens from the treasure boxes in PUG runs. I've always been open and honest that I use the treasure pulls from New Player runs to justify the cost of paying for them (to myself anyways).

I received 362 treasure pulls for those runs. I did not get $1240 worth of treasure from those tickets. . If anyone has a problem with me doing 'zombie' runs .. please .. explain to me how much *you* spent out of pocket to get new players involved this year. If anyone feels that I have somehow 'taken advantage' of either True Dungeon or New Players, step up and put your proverbial Wang (or wallet) on the table and show me the path of righteousness.

I pulled over 1300 treasure this year .. and I got (at least according to Jedi's spreadsheet) the *lowest* average of 'stuff' out of anyone. (Edit: I should have said 'the lowest average out of the larger sample sets.) If I was doing 'zombie runs' for 'profit' .. I'm fairly sure *THAT* would be my incentive to stop doing them. Thankfully .. I don't do them for profit, I do them because I like introducing new people to the game. Years working in the gaming industry taught me one *very* important lesson : your company lives and dies on 'new blood'.

True Dungeon is no different.

So .. is the conversation about making sure people can play? Or is the conversation about how some people shouldn't get more treasure than other people (even if they own some $16,000 worth of Treasure Enhancers). Because if the conversation *ISN'T* about making sure new people can play .. then it feels like folks have an agenda.