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TOPIC: Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration

Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #25

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Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jpotter wrote: My personal hope for the AoTF transmute and future TEs is that it is simply another charm of avarice that is in another slot, and you can't use them both. It would make the max treasure available to a new set of people who simply missed out on timing, and not inflate the treasure market any more than it already is.


Since it's combining the AoTF and the two TE URs that follow the three Nuggets, it seems very likely that it will act just like the CoA and combine the treasure pulls from those three URs into one Legendary, and it also seems very likely that it will stack with the CoA. I can't imagine that it wouldn't stack with the CoA otherwise anyone with max treasure pulls up to that point (which will be a lot of people) would actually lose treasure pulls by transmuting it, because the two TE URs after the nuggets that are part of the recipe do stack with the CoA.


I believe they are on record for saying there will never been a ioun stone transmute for the 3 nuggets. Call it a treasure stat tax but I doubt it would be anything like that. I doubt it would be a treasure enhancer that would stack with COA.


You're correct, Jeff did say that there wouldn't be a transmute for the 3 Ioun Stone Nuggets. I was referring to the AoTF and the two TE URs that follow the Nuggets as ingredients for the next Legendary.

I'm referring to this posting by Jeff: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=527&id=244042&start=0

Jeff also stated on post 40 of this thread that the AoTF wouldn't be reprinted: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=246738&start=36#302611


I only say may because as this years tokens have taught us, anything may be subject to change. Even if nothing changes the new legendary TE could always do something like make nuggets slotless for example. It seems a solid bet for sure but its important to remember we don't know for sure until it actually happens.
Semper Gumby, Always flexible.

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #26

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

James J Krot wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jpotter wrote: My personal hope for the AoTF transmute and future TEs is that it is simply another charm of avarice that is in another slot, and you can't use them both. It would make the max treasure available to a new set of people who simply missed out on timing, and not inflate the treasure market any more than it already is.


Since it's combining the AoTF and the two TE URs that follow the three Nuggets, it seems very likely that it will act just like the CoA and combine the treasure pulls from those three URs into one Legendary, and it also seems very likely that it will stack with the CoA. I can't imagine that it wouldn't stack with the CoA otherwise anyone with max treasure pulls up to that point (which will be a lot of people) would actually lose treasure pulls by transmuting it, because the two TE URs after the nuggets that are part of the recipe do stack with the CoA.


I believe they are on record for saying there will never been a ioun stone transmute for the 3 nuggets. Call it a treasure stat tax but I doubt it would be anything like that. I doubt it would be a treasure enhancer that would stack with COA.


You're correct, Jeff did say that there wouldn't be a transmute for the 3 Ioun Stone Nuggets. I was referring to the AoTF and the two TE URs that follow the Nuggets as ingredients for the next Legendary.

I'm referring to this posting by Jeff: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=527&id=244042&start=0

Jeff also stated on post 40 of this thread that the AoTF wouldn't be reprinted: truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=5&id=246738&start=36#302611


I only say may because as this years tokens have taught us, anything may be subject to change. Even if nothing changes the new legendary TE could always do something like make nuggets slotless for example. It seems a solid bet for sure but its important to remember we don't know for sure until it actually happens.


While I doubt the new transmute would make them slotless, I agree that things are subject to change and we're not completely sure until it's printed - and per LoDS this year not always even then.

I wouldn't at all be surprised to see a Nugget transmute that replaced all three Nuggets, gave the same amount of pulls (6), and still took 3 slots. That would speed things up in the coaching room for checking validity of tokens, and would allow the use of a chip on the transmute which the URs don't have.

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #27

I hope the new AoTF thing a ma bob transmute does NOT stack with the CoA. I don't think the game needs full parties rolling out with 500 or so pulls a run. I hope it's just another CoA type Token where you can slot one or the other but not both. Would give new players easier access to a CoA type Token and allow existing CoA players a way to vary their build but still gain max treasure.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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Last edit: by Rob F.

Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #28

Rob F wrote: I hope the new AoTF thing a ma bob transmute does NOT stack with the CoA. I don't think the game needs full parties rolling out with 500 or so pulls a run. I hope it's just another CoA type Token where you can slot one or the other but not both. Would give new players easier access to a CoA type Token and allow existing CoA players a way to vary their build but still gain max treasure.


That would be fine with me

The AoTF doesn’t stack with CoA. That seems like a harbinger.

The AoTF-transmute will probably not require an AoTF, like CoA doesn’t require a HoP. Maybe it’ll just be cheaper to make if you grabbed an AoTF as a PYP. Pure conjecture tinged with hope. But this year taught me hope for nothing and it’s hard to be disappointed.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #29

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Rob F wrote: I hope the new AoTF thing a ma bob transmute does NOT stack with the CoA. I don't think the game needs full parties rolling out with 500 or so pulls a run. I hope it's just another CoA type Token where you can slot one or the other but not both. Would give new players easier access to a CoA type Token and allow existing CoA players a way to vary their build but still gain max treasure.


That would be fine with me

The AoTF doesn’t stack with CoA. That seems like a harbinger.

The AoTF-transmute will probably not require an AoTF, like CoA doesn’t require a HoP. Maybe it’ll just be cheaper to make if you grabbed an AoTF as a PYP. Pure conjecture tinged with hope. But this year taught me hope for nothing and it’s hard to be disappointed.


I imagine there will be two pretty different camps in 2026 regarding the recipes. Many of those that held onto AoTF tokens in anticipation of the transmute will likely be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF. Many of those that didn't hold onto an AoTF (or never had one), or those that do have AoTFs but want to get more of the transmute than they have AoTF, will likely be in favor of an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF. I'll probably be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't include the AoTF.

It may boil down to how many of the new Transmutes Jeff wants out there. If there isn't an alternate recipe, it's limited to the number of AoTFs (and Mithral Coins) still out there. If there is a non-AoTF recipe, the number of Transmuted tokens will probably be a LOT higher.

It will be interesting to see how the Treasure Chips are calculated for the new Transmute. Will it include just the two non-AoTF tokens that are in the recipe, or will it also include the AoTF. For example, if the two new (post-nugget) TE URs both give four Treasure Chips, will the new transmute give 8 bonus Treasure Chips or 12 bonus Treasure Chips? And, if it does give 12 bonus Treasure Chips and stacks with the CoA, then you could get four more Treasure Chips by having the new Transmute than by not having it.

I expect some very spirited discussions in 7 years (and maybe well before then). :)

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 1 week ago #30

Mike Steele wrote: I imagine there will be two pretty different camps in 2026 regarding the recipes. Many of those that held onto AoTF tokens in anticipation of the transmute will likely be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF.


Of course. It won't be any different than when the AoTF and CoA were announced. But I think the odds are NOT in their favor. The "AoTF Required" camp will be unable to rely upon precedent to make their case, and I seriously doubt they will be any more successful than the "HoP Required" camp was. History is not on their side. And having to buy three or four PYPs to make up for the missing AoTF will result in more sales, so that's good for Jeff. Locking out newbies from the new Super TE only protects speculators, and doesn't do TD or anybody else any good.

Disclosure: I have enough AoTFs to make as many as I want, but I'm fine if they end up being optional. CoA and this year's bard instrument have me convinced it's going to work out. It will be fewer future TEs I have to get for the alternate recipe, assuming there is one. (I put the odds at greater than 90%, but whatever.)

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #31

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I imagine there will be two pretty different camps in 2026 regarding the recipes. Many of those that held onto AoTF tokens in anticipation of the transmute will likely be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF.


Of course. It won't be any different than when the AoTF and CoA were announced. But I think the odds are NOT in their favor. The "AoTF Required" camp will be unable to rely upon precedent to make their case, and I seriously doubt they will be any more successful than the "HoP Required" camp was. History is not on their side. And having to buy three or four PYPs to make up for the missing AoTF will result in more sales, so that's good for Jeff. Locking out newbies from the new Super TE only protects speculators, and doesn't do TD or anybody else any good.

Disclosure: I have enough AoTFs to make as many as I want, but I'm fine if they end up being optional. CoA and this year's bard instrument have me convinced it's going to work out. It will be fewer future TEs I have to get for the alternate recipe, assuming there is one. (I put the odds at greater than 90%, but whatever.)


Well, I think both sides will have an argument to make. The CoA was inevitably going to have an alternate recipe, because one of the motives for making it was giving those that weren't able to get an HoP the opportunity to get the equivalent of one. The CoA was announced well after the HoP was available for ordering, while the new Transmute was announced while the AoTF was still available for PYPs. It's not that different from the 7 year Rod and Tooth cycles. The first Rod token wasn't reprinted for those that weren't around to get it when it was available.

Just a preview of discussions to come. :)

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Last edit: by Mike Steele.

Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #32

It’s 100% different. Rods and Teeth aren’t URs, and they don’t affect the loot economy. I think people are lot more sensitive about being iced out of Treasure (I.e. real money) than they are about a few points of power.

No one suggested reprinting AoTF

CoA was announced with powers and recipes. The future token has not. Yes, we know it will happen, and yes, we know AoTF will be AN ingredient, but no one said it would be a REQUIRED one.

A lot of people insist we must have more URTEs to bolster token sales. Making AoTFs a requirement doesn’t do that.

I get that making AoTF required helps speculators, but it makes no sense to me. I don’t see how it helps anybody else. An alternate recipe helps new players, helps TD, and doesn’t hurt people like you and me who saved just enough for me and my party. In my mind the question isn’t whether there should be two recipes, just what they should be.

"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #33

I find it difficult to get worked up about a token that won't exist until 2026.
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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #34

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I imagine there will be two pretty different camps in 2026 regarding the recipes. Many of those that held onto AoTF tokens in anticipation of the transmute will likely be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF.


Of course. It won't be any different than when the AoTF and CoA were announced. But I think the odds are NOT in their favor. The "AoTF Required" camp will be unable to rely upon precedent to make their case, and I seriously doubt they will be any more successful than the "HoP Required" camp was. History is not on their side. And having to buy three or four PYPs to make up for the missing AoTF will result in more sales, so that's good for Jeff. Locking out newbies from the new Super TE only protects speculators, and doesn't do TD or anybody else any good.

Disclosure: I have enough AoTFs to make as many as I want, but I'm fine if they end up being optional. CoA and this year's bard instrument have me convinced it's going to work out. It will be fewer future TEs I have to get for the alternate recipe, assuming there is one. (I put the odds at greater than 90%, but whatever.)


Well, I think both sides will have an argument to make. The CoA was inevitably going to have an alternate recipe, because one of the motives for making it was giving those that weren't able to get an HoP the opportunity to get the equivalent of one. The CoA was announced well after the HoP was available for ordering, while the new Transmute was announced while the AoTF was still available for PYPs. It's not that different from the 7 year Rod and Tooth cycles. The first Rod token wasn't reprinted for those that weren't around to get it when it was available.

Just a preview of discussions to come. :)

That is barely true. Jeff only said there may be a TE transmute involving the AoTF when it was in first avaiable. The confirmation that it would definitely be used came when there was what maybe 5 weeks left to order it as a PYP. That post is from 2 years and 4 months ago. 2015 tokens would have still available till 9/30(I confirmed this date). I don’t know the exact date of that post.
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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #35

Brad Mortensen wrote: It’s 100% different. Rods and Teeth aren’t URs, and they don’t affect the loot economy. I think people are lot more sensitive about being iced out of Treasure (I.e. real money) than they are about a few points of power.

No one suggested reprinting AoTF

CoA was announced with powers and recipes. The future token has not. Yes, we know it will happen, and yes, we know AoTF will be AN ingredient, but no one said it would be a REQUIRED one.

A lot of people insist we must have more URTEs to bolster token sales. Making AoTFs a requirement doesn’t do that.

I get that making AoTF required helps speculators, but it makes no sense to me. I don’t see how it helps anybody else. An alternate recipe helps new players, helps TD, and doesn’t hurt people like you and me who saved just enough for me and my party. In my mind the question isn’t whether there should be two recipes, just what they should be.


That's not really correct, several people said they were assuming that the AoTF would be reprinted when the next Legendary transmute came out that AoTF was a part of the recipe for. That's why Jeff came out with the statement that it wouldn't be reprinted, to provide some clarity as to whether or not it would be reprinted in / around 2026.

I'm not going to get deep into a debate into whether or not there should be an alternate recipe, plenty of time for that discussion in 2026. :)

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Best Possible Treasure Enhancer Configuration 4 years 6 days ago #36

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I imagine there will be two pretty different camps in 2026 regarding the recipes. Many of those that held onto AoTF tokens in anticipation of the transmute will likely be in favor of not having an alternate recipe that doesn't require an AoTF.


Of course. It won't be any different than when the AoTF and CoA were announced. But I think the odds are NOT in their favor. The "AoTF Required" camp will be unable to rely upon precedent to make their case, and I seriously doubt they will be any more successful than the "HoP Required" camp was. History is not on their side. And having to buy three or four PYPs to make up for the missing AoTF will result in more sales, so that's good for Jeff. Locking out newbies from the new Super TE only protects speculators, and doesn't do TD or anybody else any good.

Disclosure: I have enough AoTFs to make as many as I want, but I'm fine if they end up being optional. CoA and this year's bard instrument have me convinced it's going to work out. It will be fewer future TEs I have to get for the alternate recipe, assuming there is one. (I put the odds at greater than 90%, but whatever.)


Well, I think both sides will have an argument to make. The CoA was inevitably going to have an alternate recipe, because one of the motives for making it was giving those that weren't able to get an HoP the opportunity to get the equivalent of one. The CoA was announced well after the HoP was available for ordering, while the new Transmute was announced while the AoTF was still available for PYPs. It's not that different from the 7 year Rod and Tooth cycles. The first Rod token wasn't reprinted for those that weren't around to get it when it was available.

Just a preview of discussions to come. :)

That is barely true. Jeff only said there may be a TE transmute involving the AoTF when it was in first avaiable. The confirmation that it would definitely be used came when there was what maybe 5 weeks left to order it as a PYP. That post is from 2 years and 4 months ago. 2015 tokens would have still available till 9/30(I confirmed this date). I don’t know the exact date of that post.


That's true, but the fact remains that there was still an opportunity to order AoTFs as PYPs when the confirmation came. And like you said, the possibility was floated out there long before that.

I still think what Jeff does in 2026 will largely depend on how many of the new Legendary Transmute he wants out there. No alternate recipe would limit it to the amount of AoTF in circulation (Jeff might have a good idea how many that is), an alternate recipe would of course increase that amount. Plus, I'm sure Jeff will be intensely lobbied by both sides. He might be dreading dealing with this debate in 2026. ;)

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