TOPIC: Class Power Rankings

Matthew Hayward wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Fred K wrote:
Perhaps one way to consider “power” would be how well would that character do alone assuming unlimited healing potions were available. What classes could solo dungeons normal through nightmare geared at average equipment levels for that dungeon (normal with no more than 1 UrR, HC with no legendaries and no more than 5 or 6 UR, and NM with whatever equipment they wanted.)

Realistically, the most likely classes to succeed would be (in order):
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Barbarian
4. Rogue
5. Elf Wizard (winning initiative matters)
6. Wizard
7. Dw fighter
8. Fighter
9. Druid
10. Cleric
11. Paladin
12. Bard

Most of this comes down to dealing damage and situational benefits (stun for monk, dw fighter x3 crit, elf wizard alertness.) Assuming a room 7 monster, it comes down to dealing damage. On NM, it would be a bit of a feat for any class further down on that list than wizard to beat room 7. With both wizards, it would be pretty iffy as they could survive while using Ashennes and taking combat damage. We have seen Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian solo NM dungeons but I don’t think it has been done with any other class.

Fred

That would be a fun exercise, but I don't see that as power really because that's not how the game is played. If I'm looking for the most powerful truck I'm not going to measure which one can carry the most weight in a river, I'm going to measure which can carry the most weight on a road, because that's how I'm going to use the truck.

If we are measuring based solely on being in a river I am going with Druid number 1 on account of polymorph potions. Elf Wizard would be 2 based on token support. Bard 3, but only if the Bard is singing row row your boat.

Ioun Stone Iridescent Spindle is broken and needs to be nerfed!

"Its contact posion" is the nerf XD

Adam Guay wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Fiddy wrote: I'm amused that the thread title is about power rankings, but then we're asked about class importance to a party. These are two very different things.

For example, the Monk is a pretty powerful class. I doubt many would place it in the bottom half of power rankings. But I also doubt many of us would say they are in the top half of importance to a party.

Always happy to bring amusement to people's lives. How do you feeling define power? It's an intrinsically generic term that means the ability to accomplish something. In a coop, team based game I'd consider power to be one's ability to influence your party's chances of success.

Incidentally, Monk has been the third most highly rated class so far.

Perhaps one way to consider “power” would be how well would that character do alone assuming unlimited healing potions were available. What classes could solo dungeons normal through nightmare geared at average equipment levels for that dungeon (normal with no more than 1 UrR, HC with no legendaries and no more than 5 or 6 UR, and NM with whatever equipment they wanted.)

Realistically, the most likely classes to succeed would be (in order):
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Barbarian
4. Rogue
5. Elf Wizard (winning initiative matters)
6. Wizard
7. Dw fighter
8. Fighter
9. Druid
10. Cleric
11. Paladin
12. Bard

Most of this comes down to dealing damage and situational benefits (stun for monk, dw fighter x3 crit, elf wizard alertness.) Assuming a room 7 monster, it comes down to dealing damage. On NM, it would be a bit of a feat for any class further down on that list than wizard to beat room 7. With both wizards, it would be pretty iffy as they could survive while using Ashennes and taking combat damage. We have seen Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian solo NM dungeons but I don’t think it has been done with any other class.

Fred

Using unlimited healing potions?

The idea of unlimited healing potions removes healing from the consideration. Without that, you have a question that cannot be objectively answered.

We do “The way of steel”(Conan) runs where no spells are allowed once per adventure. At NM, we have yet to fail and are moving up to epic with zero healing spells and just potions (of which we don’t use a lot.) We’ve done runs where it isn’t even close to us losing with zero magic. That says tons about the relative power of barbarian, monk, and rogue.

Fred

Fred K wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Fiddy wrote: I'm amused that the thread title is about power rankings, but then we're asked about class importance to a party. These are two very different things.

For example, the Monk is a pretty powerful class. I doubt many would place it in the bottom half of power rankings. But I also doubt many of us would say they are in the top half of importance to a party.

Always happy to bring amusement to people's lives. How do you feeling define power? It's an intrinsically generic term that means the ability to accomplish something. In a coop, team based game I'd consider power to be one's ability to influence your party's chances of success.

Incidentally, Monk has been the third most highly rated class so far.

Perhaps one way to consider “power” would be how well would that character do alone assuming unlimited healing potions were available. What classes could solo dungeons normal through nightmare geared at average equipment levels for that dungeon (normal with no more than 1 UrR, HC with no legendaries and no more than 5 or 6 UR, and NM with whatever equipment they wanted.)

Realistically, the most likely classes to succeed would be (in order):
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Barbarian
4. Rogue
5. Elf Wizard (winning initiative matters)
6. Wizard
7. Dw fighter
8. Fighter
9. Druid
10. Cleric
11. Paladin
12. Bard

Most of this comes down to dealing damage and situational benefits (stun for monk, dw fighter x3 crit, elf wizard alertness.) Assuming a room 7 monster, it comes down to dealing damage. On NM, it would be a bit of a feat for any class further down on that list than wizard to beat room 7. With both wizards, it would be pretty iffy as they could survive while using Ashennes and taking combat damage. We have seen Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian solo NM dungeons but I don’t think it has been done with any other class.

Fred

Using unlimited healing potions?

The idea of unlimited healing potions removes healing from the consideration. Without that, you have a question that cannot be objectively answered.

We do “The way of steel”(Conan) runs where no spells are allowed once per adventure. At NM, we have yet to fail and are moving up to epic with zero healing spells and just potions (of which we don’t use a lot.) We’ve done runs where it isn’t even close to us losing with zero magic. That says tons about the relative power of barbarian, monk, and rogue.

Fred

I’m pretty sure the question can be answered without Healing pots. It makes Druid and likely Cleric much much higher.

Endgame wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Adam Guay wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Josh M. wrote:

Fiddy wrote: I'm amused that the thread title is about power rankings, but then we're asked about class importance to a party. These are two very different things.

For example, the Monk is a pretty powerful class. I doubt many would place it in the bottom half of power rankings. But I also doubt many of us would say they are in the top half of importance to a party.

Always happy to bring amusement to people's lives. How do you feeling define power? It's an intrinsically generic term that means the ability to accomplish something. In a coop, team based game I'd consider power to be one's ability to influence your party's chances of success.

Incidentally, Monk has been the third most highly rated class so far.

Perhaps one way to consider “power” would be how well would that character do alone assuming unlimited healing potions were available. What classes could solo dungeons normal through nightmare geared at average equipment levels for that dungeon (normal with no more than 1 UrR, HC with no legendaries and no more than 5 or 6 UR, and NM with whatever equipment they wanted.)

Realistically, the most likely classes to succeed would be (in order):
1. Monk
2. Ranger
3. Barbarian
4. Rogue
5. Elf Wizard (winning initiative matters)
6. Wizard
7. Dw fighter
8. Fighter
9. Druid
10. Cleric
11. Paladin
12. Bard

Most of this comes down to dealing damage and situational benefits (stun for monk, dw fighter x3 crit, elf wizard alertness.) Assuming a room 7 monster, it comes down to dealing damage. On NM, it would be a bit of a feat for any class further down on that list than wizard to beat room 7. With both wizards, it would be pretty iffy as they could survive while using Ashennes and taking combat damage. We have seen Monk, Ranger, and Barbarian solo NM dungeons but I don’t think it has been done with any other class.

Fred

Using unlimited healing potions?

The idea of unlimited healing potions removes healing from the consideration. Without that, you have a question that cannot be objectively answered.

We do “The way of steel”(Conan) runs where no spells are allowed once per adventure. At NM, we have yet to fail and are moving up to epic with zero healing spells and just potions (of which we don’t use a lot.) We’ve done runs where it isn’t even close to us losing with zero magic. That says tons about the relative power of barbarian, monk, and rogue.

Fred

I’m pretty sure the question can be answered without Healing pots. It makes Druid and likely Cleric much much higher.

Ok, I'll play this game...

If you're not allowing healing potions, and if we're talking V5C combat path, I think Fighter/Dwarf would actually be my top solo picks. On a solo of this dungeon AC actually matters for everything before room 7, especially for getting through room 3 without getting dropped to 10 HP. Double-strike in room 1 combat for effective AoE. And they have a high enough to-hit to actually drop the fog beast in room 5.

Druid and Cleric would be next on my list for solo, due to their healing ability. Druid has the edge on dealing damage in the first and 5th room, but Cleric has edge in room 3 and 4 (and likely has a higher AC).

5th pick would probably be Paladin. Again, high AC matters for most of the combats. And while they'd have a hard time hitting in room 5, 1 person combat goes fast enough that they have a decent chance to auto-kill the fog demon.

I'm not sure any other classes can really make it solo through V5C NM. Without healing, you've got to trade off a lot to get
your AC high enough to not be dropped to 10 HP. And if you do drop to 10 HP, your solo adventure likely ends in room 4.

But as soon as we change which module/variant we're talking about, the situation changes and which classes make the most sense changes.

As for the "power" list, I assumed a 10 person party, similarly equipped.

I'll play. If we're talking V5c and only having to survive, I give my Elf Wizard a small chance to solo Nighmare, but it depends upon one thing - Can any of the monsters still find me if I'm invisible?
Room 1 - Take the Dalin path and solve the puzzle
Room 2- You can avoid the fight completely by searching for an alternate passageway
Room 3 - Turn invisible and take no offensive action. Take push damage. What was it? 24? I would make sure my Elf Wizard went into the dungeon a little over 100 hp.
Room 4 - Turn invisible and take no offensive action. Take push damage. I could take out a single wraith in 1 round, but it would significantly reduce my ability to cast spells in room 7.
Room 5 - Turn invisible and take no offensive action. Take push damage. I'm still at about 30 hp.
Room 6 - Solve puzzle. Am I allowed to eat a butterfly in the extra room?
Room 7 - Now I have to fight. I'll probably lose given the necro-knight's damage mitigation, but only because I'll likely run out of time. My saving throws are all at least +29 and I equip Questor's, so the odds are 400 to 1 in my favor of not failing a saving throw. Figurine of Power: Cat will make sure even if that happens I get another chance. His darkrift damage will get reduced to 12 and I can mitigate 14. The question is - can I do enough damage? At this point I've cast Invisibility 3 times (once from card, one spell swap of Ironskin and one from Crown of Expertise. My bonus damage is probably only +30 due to no bard and needing to pump hp. Here's the damage I have left.
Fireball - 30+30 bonus - 15 reduction = 45
Fireball (Ring of Spell Storing) 30+30-15=45
Ray of Shock 18+30-15=33
Acid Ray 12+30-15=27 (x2) = 54 (spell swap Bull's Strength)
Magic Missile 11+30-15=26 (x3) = 78
Shocking Grasp 6+30-15=21 (x2) = 42
Acid Splash 6+30-15=21 (x5) = 105 (spell swap Alertness)

i've assumed a couple of more spell swaps above. That's a total of 402 damage. I think the monster had more hp than that. After that I'm left throwing Thor's hammer. With mitigation, my damage would average 22 (I don't think the necro-knight could be critted). I'm only +14 to hit. I can probably get that up to +16 or +17, but probably no higher without a bard. What was his AC at nightmare? I might need a 20 to hit. If I do, then I'm not sure I would enough rounds in to finish him off. I could use scrolls or wands, but given his damage mitigation, I'm not even sure they would do any damage to him.

What else could I do? I don't think I'd have enough hp to use MEC. I could use Conserve on 1 fireball, so that adds another 45 spell damage. I could throw pixie dust onto the spells. With 16 spells that's another 48 damage. So now I'm up to 495 total spell damage. Sharpen is no good since he can't be critted and Quicken doesn't help at all with total damage. Was he susceptible to anything? I don't think Alter would have helped. Intensify is no good the way it currently works.

Ah, I could have used Conserve on my first 3 Invisibility spells. That would give me 1 more Fireball from the Crown of Expertise, 1 more Ray of Shock from spell swapping Ironskin and 1 more Acid Ray. That's another 124 damage with more pixie dust. Now I'm up to 619 total damage. I'm probably still way short of his nightmare hp. Even if I could tweak my build to get another 5 bonus damage, i'm still only around 700 hp of damage. Maybe I'm getting close enough at that point. I'd probably be better off trying to pump my ranged to hit so that I could get Thor's to hit him at something other than a 20. What was his AC at nightmare?

Monsters find you while invisible if you are the only one.

Well. that ends that.

I'm certain to be dead in room 5. Room 3 I'll get taken into the void and reappear with 10hp. Room 4 I'll take out the wraith in 1 round. Room 5 the fog demon will kill me after 2 or 3 hits. I could Absorb one and use Shadowskin for a 2nd, but there's no way I can kill the monster before I'm hit 3 a 3rd time.

Dave wrote: Well. that ends that.

I'm certain to be dead in room 5. Room 3 I'll get taken into the void and reappear with 10hp. Room 4 I'll take out the wraith in 1 round. Room 5 the fog demon will kill me after 2 or 3 hits. I could Absorb one and use Shadowskin for a 2nd, but there's no way I can kill the monster before I'm hit 3 a 3rd time.

if you had the new tabor key?

While it's easy to create a new topic to talk about solo play in the hypothetical or the actual, just would note that Invisibility doesn't stop attacks, anyway, it imposes a -4 penalty to to hit rolls for monsters that are affected by it at all.

Btw, Invisibility gives players +2 to hit and can Sneak Attack without one round delay. Interesting to read about all of the various defined conditions in the game. Rather esoteric, but some conditions are brutal.

I will all throw in a reminder that this power level discussion is NOT about which class can solo the dungeon (given restrictions or not). This is about which classes are powerful enough that you don't want them to be absent from your party (or some similar phrasing/perspective).

I would prefer none to be missing, Bard most of all assuming the party has 10 people, cleric second.