TOPIC: Class Power Rankings

Ian Lee wrote: While it's easy to create a new topic to talk about solo play in the hypothetical or the actual, just would note that Invisibility doesn't stop attacks, anyway, it imposes a -4 penalty to to hit rolls for monsters that are affected by it at all.

Btw, Invisibility gives players +2 to hit and can Sneak Attack without one round delay. Interesting to read about all of the various defined conditions in the game. Rather esoteric, but some conditions are brutal.

I return this thread to its original intent. In terms of which classes add the most power and usefulness to an entire party, I went with Bard and then Cleric. I can't remember what was next, but also felt a Druid and Monk were important. Maybe its just the monk I tend to run with, but it seems like monsters are getting stunned for a round every other combat. They also tend to do massive damage. I find that extremely useful/powerful.

btw - thanks for the education on invisibility. This explains why I have never once ever cast it in the dungeon.

If invisibility was “Target becomes invisible”, it would be fantastic to cast on lower gear Rogues

I'll be waiting a few more days to see how many more responses we can get, but right now we've got 43. If anyone is curious how things are shaping up, here's the average rank of each class:

Bard - 2.1
Cleric - 3.4
Monk - 5.3
Rogue - 5.5
Druid - 5.7
Elf Wizard - 6.1
Ranger - 6.4
Wizard - 7.5
Barbarian - 7.8
Paladin - 8.3
Dwarf Fighter - 9.2
Fighter - 10.7

Thanks for the update. That's not too far off from where I had things. I had the Paladin a little higher since with Amulet of Guarding he can minimize a lot of damage to the wizards. But that's probably because I usually play the wizard class. I like the Dwarf Fighter a little better because of his taunt ability. I had the rogue a little lower. Even though I really like flanking and sneak attack, I find the rogue clues are often lacking.

I’m interested to know # of responses as well. The deviation seems like there is likely a minimum of 10 responses. It is interesting to see the discrepancy between what looks like teirs.

Bard Tier
Cleric Tier
Monk to Ranger seems like a tier
Wizard to Paladin tier
Dwarf fighter tier
Fighter tier

I had Elf Wizard (for Alertness), Barbarian (for damage), and Dwarf Fighter (for Taunt) higher, but not too bad of a sorting order.

macxdmg wrote: I’m interested to know # of responses as well. The deviation seems like there is likely a minimum of 10 responses. It is interesting to see the discrepancy between what looks like teirs.

Bard Tier
Cleric Tier
Monk to Ranger seems like a tier
Wizard to Paladin tier
Dwarf fighter tier
Fighter tier

There are 43 responses so far. Distribution is definitely interesting. Everyone agrees that bards are awesome. Cleric has a bit longer of a right tail. Druids are double peaked, in the top 3 and the middle. At the end of this I'll be doing a histogram of each class to show the distro, and posting the raw numbers. Waiting for the poll to be live for a week before I do that though.

I think the value of Cleric vs Druid depends on the gear level of a party. A really well kitted bard and Cleric can pull a party up at least one level of difficulty. As the party gear approaches the level needed for a difficulty, and if the party knows the puzzles, the Cleric becomes less valuable. The party doesn’t need prayer, and they need less healing since they won’t take puzzle damage.

As the Cleric decreases in value, the much more combat capable Druid gains in value. The Druid or bard can still use bless scrolls, and the Druid can rock roughly double the melee damage of the Cleric while also having some damage spells to boot.

Endgame wrote: I think the value of Cleric vs Druid depends on the gear level of a party. A really well kitted bard and Cleric can pull a party up at least one level of difficulty. As the party gear approaches the level needed for a difficulty, and if the party knows the puzzles, the Cleric becomes less valuable. The party doesn’t need prayer, and they need less healing since they won’t take puzzle damage.

As the Cleric decreases in value, the much more combat capable Druid gains in value. The Druid or bard can still use bless scrolls, and the Druid can rock roughly double the melee damage of the Cleric while also having some damage spells to boot.

Turn undead with 10 undead harrowing the party is pretty good, and sometimes you just can’t tell your son that he’d be better if he played a different class.

Dave wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: While it's easy to create a new topic to talk about solo play in the hypothetical or the actual, just would note that Invisibility doesn't stop attacks, anyway, it imposes a -4 penalty to to hit rolls for monsters that are affected by it at all.

Btw, Invisibility gives players +2 to hit and can Sneak Attack without one round delay. Interesting to read about all of the various defined conditions in the game. Rather esoteric, but some conditions are brutal.

I return this thread to its original intent. In terms of which classes add the most power and usefulness to an entire party, I went with Bard and then Cleric. I can't remember what was next, but also felt a Druid and Monk were important. Maybe its just the monk I tend to run with, but it seems like monsters are getting stunned for a round every other combat. They also tend to do massive damage. I find that extremely useful/powerful.

btw - thanks for the education on invisibility. This explains why I have never once ever cast it in the dungeon.

Power may be the wrong term for this discussion. A 4th level cleric with ok healing is extremely valuable but not powerful. Those terms aren't interchangeable. Can you do runs without healers? Absolutely - I do it frequently. On the other side, if you had only healers and bards, you'd lose virtually every time if room 7 is a combat room as they can't do enough damage.

With that said, healers can be replaced with potions (for the most part.) Can damage dealers be replaced similarly?

Fred

Fred K wrote:

Dave wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: While it's easy to create a new topic to talk about solo play in the hypothetical or the actual, just would note that Invisibility doesn't stop attacks, anyway, it imposes a -4 penalty to to hit rolls for monsters that are affected by it at all.

Btw, Invisibility gives players +2 to hit and can Sneak Attack without one round delay. Interesting to read about all of the various defined conditions in the game. Rather esoteric, but some conditions are brutal.

I return this thread to its original intent. In terms of which classes add the most power and usefulness to an entire party, I went with Bard and then Cleric. I can't remember what was next, but also felt a Druid and Monk were important. Maybe its just the monk I tend to run with, but it seems like monsters are getting stunned for a round every other combat. They also tend to do massive damage. I find that extremely useful/powerful.

btw - thanks for the education on invisibility. This explains why I have never once ever cast it in the dungeon.

Power may be the wrong term for this discussion. A 4th level cleric with ok healing is extremely valuable but not powerful. Those terms aren't interchangeable. Can you do runs without healers? Absolutely - I do it frequently. On the other side, if you had only healers and bards, you'd lose virtually every time if room 7 is a combat room as they can't do enough damage.

With that said, healers can be replaced with potions (for the most part.) Can damage dealers be replaced similarly?

Fred

Fred

Everyone can bring potions of zealot brew and oils, which will help.

Let’s assume a party of only bard and healers. (We won’t count the 5th level Ranger as a healer) That would get us:
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Paladin

Cleric can push AC pretty high and Paladin can guard both the bard and the Druid.

Party buffs will be at +7 hit and +4 damage, unless we have a troubadour. Depending on gear level, Cleric will run out of Prayers eventually, but if you go to UR level, that is going to be at 6 casts which is fine for pretty much all dungeons.

Everyone uses Tulz for zealot brew for +3 / +3 if combat is melee, or oil for + damage if combat is ranged.

Having the whole party at +10 hit and +7 damage with plenty of Healing is probably sufficient to make it though the dungeon.

Ian Lee wrote: While it's easy to create a new topic to talk about solo play in the hypothetical or the actual, just would note that Invisibility doesn't stop attacks, anyway, it imposes a -4 penalty to to hit rolls for monsters that are affected by it at all.

Btw, Invisibility gives players +2 to hit and can Sneak Attack without one round delay. Interesting to read about all of the various defined conditions in the game. Rather esoteric, but some conditions are brutal.

I didn't know that - I definitely need to re-read through the DM and Players guide.

Fred