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TOPIC: Class Power Rankings

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #61

OrionW wrote: Endgame, I assume that you are talking Nightmare or lower in your power rankings - because at Epic you need to move fighter and dwarf fighter up the list.

Also for ranged combat how many combat rooms are you expecting?

I’m ranking in epic / nightmare. I would need to review rare builds hardcore.

I expect 4 combat rooms - some dungeons have 3, some have 5. VTD has had some 6 combat paths that could be chosen, but I’m not aware of any physical dungeons with 6

Edit,

If I have some time, I can pull one of my E series modules and drop some actual numbers based on, say, E3.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #62

Endgame wrote:

Exbalz wrote: So I'm super late to the party on this, but it seems to me that since the classes were designed with different roles in mind that maybe we should use multiple categories of power rankings and stack rank the classes under each category? For example, what are the facets of a party that help it succeed in a dungeon? I would submit those categories to include:

Melee Damage
Ranged Damage
Single target damage
Multi target damage
Big Turn Potential (who has the best cooldowns)
Healing/Survivability Provided (includes Guard and Taunt)
Healing/Survivability Needed (Think of this as the "Glass" half of the Glass Cannon Index)
Group Utility (Puzzle clues, bardsong, etc.)

By analyzing the classes across several categories we can start to make some overall assessments


Are we ranking how things are currently, or how they should be? If we go with how things are currently, including the VTD 25% hit penalty on offhand attacks, I think we are something like this:

Single Target, low to mid AC Melee, Top end build requires minimum +20 saves, 60hp.
1) Monk
2) Barbarian
3) Ranger
4a) (Rouge, lots of crits)
4b) Poly Druid
5) Fighter
6) Dwarf Fighter
7+ Paladin, Non Critting Rogue, Cleric, Both Wizards, Bard

High AC (40+) will probably bump monk and ranger down quite a bit given that most offhand attacks will miss. I'm not sure the rest of the list will change much.

Ranged:
1a) Wizard - Auto hits

1b) Elf Wizard - same as wizard, but with fewer spells.

3a) Rogue- Crit dependent. Given an equal number of crits between Rogue and Ranger, an Assassin's Crossbow will put the rogue ahead of the ranger. Behind wizard due to no guaranteed hits.

3b) Ranger

4) Spell Druid.

5+) Everyone else? Maybe Benrow's monk with the right build gets to be #5 and then everyone else is 6+?


VTD versus in-person will be a bit different on how off hand matters. In person, if you do monk enough - you are just as likely (maybe moreso) to hit with the second puck than the first. Ranger is a bit different - I may be the exception but I miss with both when I try to slide both pucks at the same time.

In-person, Monk off-hand is probably equal to or (at worse) -1 or -2 to hit versus main-hand. For expanded crit ranges, you'll see those improve quite a bit better than VTD as well. I average crits with a rogue on more than 60% of my in-person slides and did that for a year (before doing more wizard runs). I know quite a few people who are better sliders than me.

I would put Monk #1 on damage for any run where melee damage matters. Rogue would fall but maybe by 1-2 spots.

Range attacks I find a Monk using gloves of the flying fists is still the #1 ranged damage dealer.

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Wizard build
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Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

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Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #63

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Endgame, I assume that you are talking Nightmare or lower in your power rankings - because at Epic you need to move fighter and dwarf fighter up the list.

Also for ranged combat how many combat rooms are you expecting?

I’m ranking in epic / nightmare. I would need to review rare builds hardcore.

I expect 4 combat rooms - some dungeons have 3, some have 5. VTD has had some 6 combat paths that could be chosen, but I’m not aware of any physical dungeons with 6

Edit,

If I have some time, I can pull one of my E series modules and drop some actual numbers based on, say, E3.

I'm doing this exceptionally fast, and don't have anything in excel for this yet, so we'll ball park this.

E3 doesn't have any published epic numbers, but E2 does have published epic.

Both E2 and E3 are 3 combats.

E2 ACs on Epic are 29, 25, and 35.

E2 has no flying monsters.

Looking at melee builds (all builds have 20+ saves, 60+ hp). Dwarf fighter has high enough AC to guarantee all monsters need a 20 to hit for taunt usage.

For Monk and Ranger, we will add the VTD offhand penalty.

Assume Bard w/ Legendary Windseth and using Bless Scroll is in the party, so add +5 / +4 to all stats.
For being really quick and ignoring how rooms 2 and 3 could cause many rounds of combat, assume all combats go 2 rounds.

1) Monk - +25 hit (+18 offhand) / +45 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 655-711

2) Barbarian - +20 hit / +57 damage / Averon's 12.8 average damage.
Room 1, hits on 4+. Probably lands 2 hits for 140 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Greater Rage and Fury. probably lands 2 hits for 221 damage.
Room 3, hits on 10+. Greater Rage and Fury. May miss once. Damage range is large. 76-221
Total: 437-582

3) Ranger - +24 hit (+18 offhand) / +36 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 555-602

4a) --omitting rouge to not worry about crits at the moment--

4b) Poly Druid - +23 hit / +44 poly damage / +29 spell damage / Iktomi's 11 average damage, +3 freezing orbs (RoQB), +1 Spell Surge Call Lightning (RoSS)
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 1 freezing orb for 37 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 2 freezing orbs for 74 damage.
Room 3, hits on 7+. May miss once, but probably hits for 110. 1x spell surge call lightning for 69 damage.
Total: 455-510

5) Fighter - +30 hit / +44 damage / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 3, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +5 damage on each attack.
Total: 330-360.

6) Dwarf Fighter - +24 hit / +34 damage / 51 AC / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 2: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 3: hits on 5+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +2 damage on each attack.
Total: 270-282.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #64

Endgame picking a combat with out multiple monsters seems a bit like stacking the deck against Fighters. I think we need a different module. ;)

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Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #65

OrionW wrote: Endgame picking a combat with out multiple monsters seems a bit like stacking the deck against Fighters. I think we need a different module. ;)

Just dug up my module for E1. It does have epic stats, but it has the odd combat where only a slide of 18 hits, which is, uh, difficult to write out.

I have no other modules with Epic stats…

Edit
The E series only has one Combat with multiple monsters - that’s e3 room 7. Since Blackthorn is flying double attack will be useless

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #66

Endgame wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Endgame, I assume that you are talking Nightmare or lower in your power rankings - because at Epic you need to move fighter and dwarf fighter up the list.

Also for ranged combat how many combat rooms are you expecting?

I’m ranking in epic / nightmare. I would need to review rare builds hardcore.

I expect 4 combat rooms - some dungeons have 3, some have 5. VTD has had some 6 combat paths that could be chosen, but I’m not aware of any physical dungeons with 6

Edit,

If I have some time, I can pull one of my E series modules and drop some actual numbers based on, say, E3.

I'm doing this exceptionally fast, and don't have anything in excel for this yet, so we'll ball park this.

E3 doesn't have any published epic numbers, but E2 does have published epic.

Both E2 and E3 are 3 combats.

E2 ACs on Epic are 29, 25, and 35.

E2 has no flying monsters.

Looking at melee builds (all builds have 20+ saves, 60+ hp). Dwarf fighter has high enough AC to guarantee all monsters need a 20 to hit for taunt usage.

For Monk and Ranger, we will add the VTD offhand penalty.

Assume Bard w/ Legendary Windseth and using Bless Scroll is in the party, so add +5 / +4 to all stats.
For being really quick and ignoring how rooms 2 and 3 could cause many rounds of combat, assume all combats go 2 rounds.

1) Monk - +25 hit (+18 offhand) / +45 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 655-711

2) Barbarian - +20 hit / +57 damage / Averon's 12.8 average damage.
Room 1, hits on 4+. Probably lands 2 hits for 140 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Greater Rage and Fury. probably lands 2 hits for 221 damage.
Room 3, hits on 10+. Greater Rage and Fury. May miss once. Damage range is large. 76-221
Total: 437-582

3) Ranger - +24 hit (+18 offhand) / +36 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 555-602

4a) --omitting rouge to not worry about crits at the moment--

4b) Poly Druid - +23 hit / +44 poly damage / +29 spell damage / Iktomi's 11 average damage, +3 freezing orbs (RoQB), +1 Spell Surge Call Lightning (RoSS)
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 1 freezing orb for 37 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 2 freezing orbs for 74 damage.
Room 3, hits on 7+. May miss once, but probably hits for 110. 1x spell surge call lightning for 69 damage.
Total: 455-510

5) Fighter - +30 hit / +44 damage / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 3, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +5 damage on each attack.
Total: 330-360.

6) Dwarf Fighter - +24 hit / +34 damage / 51 AC / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 2: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 3: hits on 5+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +2 damage on each attack.
Total: 270-282.


I forget who put it together but there is a thread already about max damage by class that allows for changing the ACs and incorporates crits. That might allow for a more accurate comparison. It also allows for a realistic comparison on Rogue - without crits, rogue is only above bard and cleric for damage.

I would also recommend looking at 2 rounds of combat per room - that seems more common than 3.

Barb damage and to hit seem very low. I've been doing runs on Epic with barbarians. +20 to hit and +60 damage is a good starting point (+24 to hit and +64 dmg assuming bardsong with Widseth's) Because of the availability of the panther figurine and rogue flank, I haven't seen a fury attack miss yet (due to re-roll and advantage+1 rolls.) Realistically, you are looking at Barbs doing 400+ just on the two fury attacks. Using V5b, typical epic Barb builds will hit on anything but a 1 for 2 of the 3 creatures. Assuming 3 rounds of combat each, that means 70+ dmg/round from barb in non-fury rounds 95% of the time. Assuming 12 rounds of combat per run, that works out to 630 dmg (700 *.95) plus 2 furies for 200 each = 830 damage. Reduce that for 3 rounds in the higher AC room to maybe 50% hit rate and total damage does down by 105 to 725.

If the comparisons are just base tokens without consumables - they shouldn't be included in these calculations (you argued against consumables being considered earlier in this thread.)

Anyone with better forum search-fu than myself able to find the max damage by class calculator link?

Fred
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Wizard build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=247398

Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

Items for Sale or Trade
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Items needed to complete my collection
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Last edit: by Fred K.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #67

I found the 2019 version of the TD Class Max Damage Sheet (Matt Hayward did it - I can't find a more recent version.)

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13Cq75DAjx5e-RUIEyPSDwm8nsB9sss33B7pTOdpNrE4/edit#gid=2002207380
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Wizard build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=247398

Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

Items for Sale or Trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247555

Items needed to complete my collection
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=253058

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Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #68

Fred K wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Endgame, I assume that you are talking Nightmare or lower in your power rankings - because at Epic you need to move fighter and dwarf fighter up the list.

Also for ranged combat how many combat rooms are you expecting?

I’m ranking in epic / nightmare. I would need to review rare builds hardcore.

I expect 4 combat rooms - some dungeons have 3, some have 5. VTD has had some 6 combat paths that could be chosen, but I’m not aware of any physical dungeons with 6

Edit,

If I have some time, I can pull one of my E series modules and drop some actual numbers based on, say, E3.

I'm doing this exceptionally fast, and don't have anything in excel for this yet, so we'll ball park this.

E3 doesn't have any published epic numbers, but E2 does have published epic.

Both E2 and E3 are 3 combats.

E2 ACs on Epic are 29, 25, and 35.

E2 has no flying monsters.

Looking at melee builds (all builds have 20+ saves, 60+ hp). Dwarf fighter has high enough AC to guarantee all monsters need a 20 to hit for taunt usage.

For Monk and Ranger, we will add the VTD offhand penalty.

Assume Bard w/ Legendary Windseth and using Bless Scroll is in the party, so add +5 / +4 to all stats.
For being really quick and ignoring how rooms 2 and 3 could cause many rounds of combat, assume all combats go 2 rounds.

1) Monk - +25 hit (+18 offhand) / +45 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 655-711

2) Barbarian - +20 hit / +57 damage / Averon's 12.8 average damage.
Room 1, hits on 4+. Probably lands 2 hits for 140 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Greater Rage and Fury. probably lands 2 hits for 221 damage.
Room 3, hits on 10+. Greater Rage and Fury. May miss once. Damage range is large. 76-221
Total: 437-582

3) Ranger - +24 hit (+18 offhand) / +36 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 555-602

4a) --omitting rouge to not worry about crits at the moment--

4b) Poly Druid - +23 hit / +44 poly damage / +29 spell damage / Iktomi's 11 average damage, +3 freezing orbs (RoQB), +1 Spell Surge Call Lightning (RoSS)
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 1 freezing orb for 37 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 2 freezing orbs for 74 damage.
Room 3, hits on 7+. May miss once, but probably hits for 110. 1x spell surge call lightning for 69 damage.
Total: 455-510

5) Fighter - +30 hit / +44 damage / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 3, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +5 damage on each attack.
Total: 330-360.

6) Dwarf Fighter - +24 hit / +34 damage / 51 AC / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 2: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 3: hits on 5+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +2 damage on each attack.
Total: 270-282.


I forget who put it together but there is a thread already about max damage by class that allows for changing the ACs and incorporates crits. That might allow for a more accurate comparison. It also allows for a realistic comparison on Rogue - without crits, rogue is only above bard and cleric for damage.

I would also recommend looking at 2 rounds of combat per room - that seems more common than 3.

Barb damage seem very low. I've been doing runs on Epic with barbarians. Because of the availability of the panther figurine and rogue flank, I haven't seen a fury attack miss yet (due to re-roll and advantage+1 rolls.) Realistically, you are looking at Barbs doing 400+ just on the two fury attacks. Using V5b, typical epic Barb builds will hit on anything but a 1 for 2 of the 3 creatures. Assuming 3 rounds of combat each, that means 70+ dmg/round from barb in non-fury rounds 95% of the time. Assuming 12 rounds of combat per run, that works out to 630 dmg (700 *.95) plus 2 furies for 200 each = 830 damage.

If the comparisons are just base tokens without consumables - they shouldn't be included in these calculations (you argued against consumables being considered earlier in this thread.)

Anyone with better forum search-fu than myself able to find the max damage by class calculator link?

Fred

All combats are 2 rounds - I just bolded that in my original post.

The only consumable I used is the bless scroll bard, because it's faster and more consistent than having a cleric sometimes add +1 or +3 in a combat, depending on Cleric gear.

I believe it is impossible for a Barbarian to deal 200 damage from a single fury attack. The highest damage barbarian build I'm aware of is +65 damage, and it would not meet the stated minimum requirements, as it has 59 hp and 17/8/16 saves. If this Barbarian uses Fury, Greater Rage (+6), and slides the highest possible number on Averon's (21), it would deal 184 damage. The full damage range is 158-184 damage.

Edit to note that a level 5 bard with +2 damage instrument would make the fury + greater rage damage range 166-190, assuming the target can be crit. If you need to wear bracers of guided strike to crit the monster, that will decrease the crit damage by 10 (loss of bracers of reckless fury).

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #69

OrionW wrote: Endgame picking a combat with out multiple monsters seems a bit like stacking the deck against Fighters. I think we need a different module. ;)


Lets take E2 and add a 4th Combat with 2 Monsters with AC 29 each, so I can keep this fast. Room 4 combat will be 3 rounds

1) Monk - +25 hit (+18 offhand) / +45 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
Room 4: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 6 hits for 357 damage
total: 1012 - 1068

2) Barbarian - +20 hit / +57 damage / Averon's 12.8 average damage.
Room 1, hits on 4+. Probably lands 2 hits for 140 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Greater Rage and Fury. probably lands 2 hits for 221 damage.
Room 3, hits on 10+. Greater Rage and Fury. May miss once. Damage range is large. 76-221
Room 4, hits on 4+. Probably lands 3 hits for 210 damage.
Total: 647-792

3) Ranger - +24 hit (+18 offhand) / +36 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
Room 4: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 6 hits for 282 damage
total: 837-884

4a) --omitting rouge to not worry about crits at the moment--

4b) Poly Druid - +23 hit / +44 poly damage / +29 spell damage / Iktomi's 11 average damage, +3 freezing orbs (RoQB), +1 Spell Surge Call Lightning (RoSS)
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 1 freezing orb for 37 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 2 freezing orbs for 74 damage.
Room 3, hits on 7+. May miss once, but probably hits for 110. 1x spell surge call lightning for 69 damage.
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 3 hits for 165 damage
Total: 620-675

5) Fighter - +30 hit / +44 damage / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 3, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 4, hits on 2+. Probably lands 3 hits for 165 damage, doubled to second monster for between 1 to 3 rounds for another 55 to 165 damage, up to 330 total.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +5 damage on each attack.
Total: 550-690.

6) Dwarf Fighter - +24 hit / +34 damage / 51 AC / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 2: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 3: hits on 5+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 4, hits on 2+. Probably lands 3 hits for 135 damage, doubled to second monster for 45 to another 135, for up to 270 total.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +2 damage on each attack.
Total: 450-552

Basically, Ranger and Barb trade places. Fighter might pull ahead of Poly Druid if the Fighter uses power attack for +5 damage, the 4th room combat goes 3 rounds, both monsters stay alive all 3 rounds, and the Fighter doesn't miss on the 4th combat. Basically, Fighter and Poly Druid are neck and neck in the right 4 combat dungeon with the right 2 monster room, in ideal circumstances. otherwise the gap is hugely in favor of Poly Druid..

Edit to account for damage range in 2 monster rooms where one dies ahead of the other.

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Last edit: by Endgame.

Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #70

Endgame wrote:

Fred K wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Endgame wrote:

OrionW wrote: Endgame, I assume that you are talking Nightmare or lower in your power rankings - because at Epic you need to move fighter and dwarf fighter up the list.

Also for ranged combat how many combat rooms are you expecting?



I’m ranking in epic / nightmare. I would need to review rare builds hardcore.

I expect 4 combat rooms - some dungeons have 3, some have 5. VTD has had some 6 combat paths that could be chosen, but I’m not aware of any physical dungeons with 6

Edit,

If I have some time, I can pull one of my E series modules and drop some actual numbers based on, say, E3.

I'm doing this exceptionally fast, and don't have anything in excel for this yet, so we'll ball park this.

E3 doesn't have any published epic numbers, but E2 does have published epic.

Both E2 and E3 are 3 combats.

E2 ACs on Epic are 29, 25, and 35.

E2 has no flying monsters.

Looking at melee builds (all builds have 20+ saves, 60+ hp). Dwarf fighter has high enough AC to guarantee all monsters need a 20 to hit for taunt usage.

For Monk and Ranger, we will add the VTD offhand penalty.

Assume Bard w/ Legendary Windseth and using Bless Scroll is in the party, so add +5 / +4 to all stats.
For being really quick and ignoring how rooms 2 and 3 could cause many rounds of combat, assume all combats go 2 rounds.

1) Monk - +25 hit (+18 offhand) / +45 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 238 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 655-711

2) Barbarian - +20 hit / +57 damage / Averon's 12.8 average damage.
Room 1, hits on 4+. Probably lands 2 hits for 140 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Greater Rage and Fury. probably lands 2 hits for 221 damage.
Room 3, hits on 10+. Greater Rage and Fury. May miss once. Damage range is large. 76-221
Total: 437-582

3) Ranger - +24 hit (+18 offhand) / +36 damage / 2x ashers 10.5 average damage each.
Room 1: hits on 2+ main hand, on 6+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 2: hits on 2+ mainhand, 2+ offhand. Probably lands 4 hits for 188 damage
Room 3: hits on 5+ mainhand, 12+ offhand. Probably lands 3 hits for 179
total: 555-602

4a) --omitting rouge to not worry about crits at the moment--

4b) Poly Druid - +23 hit / +44 poly damage / +29 spell damage / Iktomi's 11 average damage, +3 freezing orbs (RoQB), +1 Spell Surge Call Lightning (RoSS)
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 1 freezing orb for 37 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage, lands 2 freezing orbs for 74 damage.
Room 3, hits on 7+. May miss once, but probably hits for 110. 1x spell surge call lightning for 69 damage.
Total: 455-510

5) Fighter - +30 hit / +44 damage / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 2, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Room 3, hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 110 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +5 damage on each attack.
Total: 330-360.

6) Dwarf Fighter - +24 hit / +34 damage / 51 AC / Welfor's 10.5 average damage
Room 1: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 2: hits on 2+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Room 3: hits on 5+. Probably lands 2 hits for 90 damage.
Could fairly safely use power attack for +2 damage on each attack.
Total: 270-282.


I forget who put it together but there is a thread already about max damage by class that allows for changing the ACs and incorporates crits. That might allow for a more accurate comparison. It also allows for a realistic comparison on Rogue - without crits, rogue is only above bard and cleric for damage.

I would also recommend looking at 2 rounds of combat per room - that seems more common than 3.

Barb damage seem very low. I've been doing runs on Epic with barbarians. Because of the availability of the panther figurine and rogue flank, I haven't seen a fury attack miss yet (due to re-roll and advantage+1 rolls.) Realistically, you are looking at Barbs doing 400+ just on the two fury attacks. Using V5b, typical epic Barb builds will hit on anything but a 1 for 2 of the 3 creatures. Assuming 3 rounds of combat each, that means 70+ dmg/round from barb in non-fury rounds 95% of the time. Assuming 12 rounds of combat per run, that works out to 630 dmg (700 *.95) plus 2 furies for 200 each = 830 damage.

If the comparisons are just base tokens without consumables - they shouldn't be included in these calculations (you argued against consumables being considered earlier in this thread.)

Anyone with better forum search-fu than myself able to find the max damage by class calculator link?

Fred

All combats are 2 rounds - I just bolded that in my original post.

The only consumable I used is the bless scroll bard, because it's faster and more consistent than having a cleric sometimes add +1 or +3 in a combat, depending on Cleric gear.

I believe it is impossible for a Barbarian to deal 200 damage from a single fury attack. The highest damage barbarian build I'm aware of is +65 damage, and it would not meet the stated minimum requirements, as it has 59 hp and 17/8/16 saves. If this Barbarian uses Fury, Greater Rage (+6), and slides the highest possible number on Averon's (21), it would deal 184 damage. The full damage range is 158-184 damage.

Edit to note that a level 5 bard with +2 damage instrument would make the fury + greater rage damage range 166-190, assuming the target can be crit. If you need to wear bracers of guided strike to crit the monster, that will decrease the crit damage by 10 (loss of bracers of reckless fury).


It is becoming increasingly common for a wizard to boost barbarians for fury attacks. Base attack +63 (my current built with 70 hp and 20’s for saves), add +4 for bard song, use greater rage for +6, avg averon dmg of 12.8 gives you 75.8 before boost. Add an MEC boosted fireball for 40 more base and you have a reliable base of 115.8 (231 crit.) Even a non MEC boost of 20 puts you a hair under 200 crit dmg (191 crit.)

Matt has a spreadsheet that breaks all of this down already and demonstrated what classes are the top damage dealers.

Because of gloves of the flying fist, Monks are the #1 range damage dealers as well.
What do we want? Evidence based science! When do we want it? After peer review!

Wizard build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=570&id=247398

Rogue build
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=569&id=245490#287189

Items for Sale or Trade
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247555

Items needed to complete my collection
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=61&id=253058

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Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #71

Any update on survey results?

Maybe it will inform what people choose to play this weekend!

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Class Power Rankings 5 months 3 weeks ago #72

Sorry for the delay on this, work got insane and taking care of the auction and outstanding trades took priority for what free time I managed to steal. Now that's all taken care of unless there are shipping issues, so I'll be working on this next. We have 52 current responses. I'll be posting some key metrics here later this week based on the survey, and posting the raw data to Google Drive in case someone wants to play with it on their own.

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