TOPIC: 2020 Transmuted Beta Images

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't want to keep harping on the +5 Holy Avenger because I'm not anti-paladin or anything. With my backup class being Wizard I find myself liking the guard facility on a regular basis. I really like Paladins, but I rarely play one, so again I want to leave that caveat.

Now imagine the following slotless Legendary:

• +5 to Saves
  • Guard one more ally
  • Can sacrifice twice
  • 10-pt heal (1/game
  • Auto-kill Evil Outsider on 20
  
  
  That's almost as much saves as Pharacus' Cloak, and has the effect of Amulet of Guarding, and is slotless to boot. So that's pretty good. I wouldn't like to remove the extra guard because of the flavor. I agree with others if we reduce the saves to +2 or something then you have a token that's not too OP.
  
  Now you might argue "but it isn't slotless". I'll argue that it is not only slotless, it is actually better than slotless. Why is that? It's slotless because equipping it in your Mainhand doesn't prevent you from utilizing any other weapons. So it doesn't take up that slot. To be fair it would block something like a Viper Set bonus but most Paladins don't use Viper Strike Fangs from what I see. This is why I consider it slotless. Because there are no weapons higher than a +5 to-hit, and because almost all other weapons don't have a party card effect, there is no downside to equipping this.
  
  Why is it better than a slotless? Because you can't attack with a slotless. This is also a great weapon. So you can choose: equip it but don't slide it and it is slotless. Slide it and it is a +5 Legendary weapon. This assumes its effects still apply even when you switch weapons which hasn't been explicitly stated.
  
  So here are the options a Paladin has with this Legendary:
  
  • If they don't like it as their weapon, equip it and use the other weapon. If the other weapon wasn't a +5 then you just sleazed it into a +5 but didn't break any rules. So it's slotless and also upgrades any other weapon to a +5 to-hit.
  • If they do like it as their weapon, now they have a great Legendary token that is also a great +5 weapon.
  
  I like the token, just tone down or even remove the save bonus. Actually now that I think about it that's my preferred option. Since save bonuses are recorded on the party card, and since players can swap weapons, it is simpler to not have save bonuses on a weapon.
  
  No, regarding stacking the guards. It seems we are getting into game-breaking territory here. With 1 guard you have a tough choice. With 3 guards you can guard both wizards as well as the bard. That's 1/3 of the party that doesn't have to worry much about their AC.
  
  Another way to look at it is the Paladin would be taking an average of 40% of all attacks. In a 3-combat dungeon, with 3 rounds per combat, and 10 players, and with monsters making single-target melee attacks, players were already averaging only one attack per dungeon.

+1

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't want to keep harping on the +5 Holy Avenger because I'm not anti-paladin or anything. With my backup class being Wizard I find myself liking the guard facility on a regular basis. I really like Paladins, but I rarely play one, so again I want to leave that caveat.

Now imagine the following slotless Legendary:

• +5 to Saves
  • Guard one more ally
  • Can sacrifice twice
  • 10-pt heal (1/game
  • Auto-kill Evil Outsider on 20
  
  
  That's almost as much saves as Pharacus' Cloak, and has the effect of Amulet of Guarding, and is slotless to boot. So that's pretty good. I wouldn't like to remove the extra guard because of the flavor. I agree with others if we reduce the saves to +2 or something then you have a token that's not too OP.
  
  Now you might argue "but it isn't slotless". I'll argue that it is not only slotless, it is actually better than slotless. Why is that? It's slotless because equipping it in your Mainhand doesn't prevent you from utilizing any other weapons. So it doesn't take up that slot. To be fair it would block something like a Viper Set bonus but most Paladins don't use Viper Strike Fangs from what I see. This is why I consider it slotless. Because there are no weapons higher than a +5 to-hit, and because almost all other weapons don't have a party card effect, there is no downside to equipping this.
  
  Why is it better than a slotless? Because you can't attack with a slotless. This is also a great weapon. So you can choose: equip it but don't slide it and it is slotless. Slide it and it is a +5 Legendary weapon. This assumes its effects still apply even when you switch weapons which hasn't been explicitly stated.
  
  So here are the options a Paladin has with this Legendary:
  
  • If they don't like it as their weapon, equip it and use the other weapon. If the other weapon wasn't a +5 then you just sleazed it into a +5 but didn't break any rules. So it's slotless and also upgrades any other weapon to a +5 to-hit.
  • If they do like it as their weapon, now they have a great Legendary token that is also a great +5 weapon.
  
  I like the token, just tone down or even remove the save bonus. Actually now that I think about it that's my preferred option. Since save bonuses are recorded on the party card, and since players can swap weapons, it is simpler to not have save bonuses on a weapon.
  
  No, regarding stacking the guards. It seems we are getting into game-breaking territory here. With 1 guard you have a tough choice. With 3 guards you can guard both wizards as well as the bard. That's 1/3 of the party that doesn't have to worry much about their AC.
  
  Another way to look at it is the Paladin would be taking an average of 40% of all attacks. In a 3-combat dungeon, with 3 rounds per combat, and 10 players, and with monsters making single-target melee attacks, players were already averaging only one attack per dungeon.

Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

If we make the +5 Holy avenger too week a lot of us will not want it. Besides we already have a slotless legendary token in the Lute, for no slot it lets a Bard give a total of +4+4 Bard song and gives the Bard a full regular and free action, plus a reroll 1 to 3 failed saves, so yes very strong. I would say getting your action back is stronger than guard.

I’m ok with toning down the sword some but let’s not nerf it into being something I don’t even want. I think locking it into the hand slot fixes all the slotless issues, it can be a Holy avenger only rule with the Golden rule is the tokens text can change a rule. A small tweak can fix all the slotless issues.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

I certainly have no problem with those features. My proposal was to remove the saves bonus.

I like all of these ideas (though I've honestly never played paladin):

1. Those guarded save if the Paladin saves
2. Paladin can guard ranged
3. Paladin can guard all attacks
4. Lay of hands gets a boost on the first use
5. Remove insta-kill entirely
6. Tacked on retribution damage to boost guard

It doesn't seem like anyone has been a fan of the Evil Outsider thing. Let's just strike it. It appears that nixing it creates additional design space for abilities that paladins will actually enjoy.

It also seems like everyone likes Guard. Shouldn't we just be building on that? I like #1-3 for that reason.

I don't remember the notes from last year, but I vaguely recall that Amulet of Guarding was part of the reason that Paladins were getting their legendary in a non-neck slot - they already had an iconic neck item.

The way this is unfolding, it seems like the Paladin legendary should have been designed for the neck slot anyway and just include the Amulet of Guarding as one of the URs in the recipe. Other URs have been reprinted 3 years apart, so there would have been precedent. Hindsight is always 20/20, though.

Anyway- my 2 cents is just to drop the insta-kill (it seems nobody will lament that) and focus on expanding guard's utility.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Really I wish people would stop bringing up the autokill and the sacrifice like they matter, the are going to come into effect almost never and there would be no negative reaction if they were stripped from the token.

I certainly have no problem with those features. My proposal was to remove the saves bonus.

What if we made it something more selfless, like +5 saves to the target of your guard, still really powerful especially if you guard more then 1 person

Picc wrote: Relic
+3 damage vs evil creatures (same wording as the holy greatsword)

Legendary
+5 damage vs evil creatures

Considering that nearly all TD creatures are evil, this would be +3/+5 damage to just about everything. It would be easier on coaches and DMs if the damage wheel simply got a bump instead of making it a conditional that's active ~90%* of the time.

*That number was not determined with actual data, only perception

Wow I am totally against all of the calls for the nerf of the Holy Avenger, and I don't even play paladin.

Tone down the saves a bit? Sure. Eliminating them altogether seems to take away the 'neat' factor from the token.

Please let's take a look at the first round of Legendaries. I feel they were done very well. And the reason for that, is because they all let the classes do something that they did regularly every dungeon (some druids at least), just better and with a twist.

Druid: Polymorph better and with choice
Rogue: Sneak Attack better and more often
Bard: Buff the party better all the freaking time, and do whatever else you want!

Paladin relic currently:

Do damage worse than Welfor's

guard like you have already (not better, just like you could before really)

sacrifice one more time (not that you ever really sacrifice)

LoH for some more hps (this is kinda neat I guess)

insta-kill something sometimes that you will rarely see (oh and everyone hates this ability)

get some saves (this is actually neat)

And everyone wants to say the saves are overpowered? I think it's almost the only interesting thing about the item as it stands. It would be way more interesting if the holy avenger stacked with the amulet of guarding. At least then the paladin would have a choice to do something better than they could before.


I feel class legendaries should be legendary. They should be a bit better. They should let paladins do something a little bit better that they do normally every dungeon (not an ability they use every once in a blue moon).

If you want to suggest something else neat that the paladin legendary could do, I'm all for it (And I loved the "if the paladin saves those he/she is guarding save as well" ideas from earlier threads)

However it seems people here want it to be:

Less Welfor damage
guard 2
sacrifice 2
auto-kill

And to put it bluntly, that item sucks.

Kakitahan wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: I think the Monk transmute is basically OK. Tacking in Dark Disciple Shirt I like.

I am worried that skilled monks, monks with helpful flanking rogues, etc. will stun lock monsters leading to no-fun combats.

How about change the legendary stun effect to proc more often but still be limited:

Stunning Fist on 18-20, no stun immunity, 2/room, must declare using ability before slide

?

I agree that monk legendary is decent. I feel a +6 damage would have been a better place especially for a neck slot. Still on the fence if it will be made for me. I do like adding the extra psychic ability compared to necklace providing psychic. Just need to make sure to equip a psychic enabler.

It would be nice to get returning Shurikens but it isn’t a biggie.

Stun gets overlooked a lot but stun can be a over powered ability. Rather sub it out for something else but maybe the ship sailed already.

It just means you need to equip the ring also, if this allowed a third ring instead of psychic it might be more obvious.

jpotter wrote: Wow I am totally against all of the calls for the nerf of the Holy Avenger, and I don't even play paladin.

Less Welfor damage
guard 2
sacrifice 2
auto-kill

And to put it bluntly, that item sucks.

a. That's a matter of opinion.

b. Let's hear some proposals a better item then. There has to be a middle ground between "it sucks" and granting a slotless effects: of a UR Amulet of Guarding, UR Crown of Expertise, and better than a relic back slot bolted onto an already capable +5 weapon.

Frankly I think a problem with the design is the decision to make it a weapon.

Maybe it should be:

Neck slot:
* Gain +3/+3 in melee while wielding the +2 Holy Avenger.
* Ability 2
* Ability 3
* Ability 4

It's a lot easier to reason about the power level of a slotted token.

In fact, by making this token substantially worse by consuming a neck slot, I think it's easier to see how too-good it is:

Neck Slot:
* +5 to saves
* +3/+3 to melee if you're wielding a +2 Holy Avenger
* +10 to lay on hands
* Additional Sacrifice
* Additional Guard
* Autokill evil outsiders on slid 20 if wielding +2 Holy Avenger

This still seems too good to me. Maybe if the saves bonus went to +2 it would seem about right.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote: Wow I am totally against all of the calls for the nerf of the Holy Avenger, and I don't even play paladin.

Less Welfor damage
guard 2
sacrifice 2
auto-kill

And to put it bluntly, that item sucks.

a. That's a matter of opinion.

b. Let's hear some proposals a better item then. There has to be a middle ground between "it sucks" and granting a slotless effects of a UR neck, UR Crown of Expertiese, and better than a relic back slot bolted onto an already capable +5 weapon.

Taking my own advice:

+5 Holy Avenger: Some reasonable damage wheel.
* Your guard also protects against ranged and single targeted spells when guarding against an evil creature.
* +10 Lay On Hands
* +2 to saves while you are guarding
* Sacrifice sets HP to 10 (or 15)
* Insta-kill evil outsiders on 20 (or replace this with something minor paladins want).

This replaces the additional guard with an improved guard. You can stack your Amulet of Guarding with this improved guard or not.

Keeps the lay on hands and sacrifice (doesn't grant second sacrifice because I agree such a thing is highly unlikely to occur and uses up some design budget).

Keeps the saves element people seem to like but makes it a reasonable buff, and not on the party card so no shenanigans.

Keeps insta-kill - paladins should decide if that's what they want with that ability. I might replace it with:

"Smite: As a free action deal +10 damage to evil creatures after scoring a melee hit. (1/room)."

Or:

"Holy Light: All your damage is sacred damage for remainder of room. (1/game)."

Or:

"Aura of Holiness: All evil creatures take damage equal to your will save every round until end of room. (1/game)"

Druegar wrote:

Picc wrote: Relic
+3 damage vs evil creatures (same wording as the holy greatsword)

Legendary
+5 damage vs evil creatures

Considering that nearly all TD creatures are evil, this would be +3/+5 damage to just about everything. It would be easier on coaches and DMs if the damage wheel simply got a bump instead of making it a conditional that's active ~90%* of the time.

*That number was not determined with actual data, only perception

Without looking at the modules, I don't think these were evil:

Draccus
Old Holly
Mr. Wiggles

Can constructs be evil? Cause we've fought plenty of those.

I might put non-evil at closer to 20-33%.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jpotter wrote: Wow I am totally against all of the calls for the nerf of the Holy Avenger, and I don't even play paladin.

Less Welfor damage
guard 2
sacrifice 2
auto-kill

And to put it bluntly, that item sucks.

a. That's a matter of opinion.

b. Let's hear some proposals a better item then. There has to be a middle ground between "it sucks" and granting a slotless effects: of a UR Amulet of Guarding, UR Crown of Expertise, and better than a relic back slot bolted onto an already capable +5 weapon.

This still seems too good to me. Maybe if the saves bonus went to +2 it would seem about right.

My original post did call for better ideas and included one (saving for those guarded). My point was that everyone seems to want to simply take the saves away and say that the item is ok then.

The saves are the only interesting thing about it in its current form, as nothing else is actually something the paladin can't already do.

As is evidenced by responses in this thread, people don't actually use sacrifice outside of grind or corner cases, and everyone hates the very niche auto kill. So as others have said, including them as if they are some amazing bonuses to the paladin class seems disingenuous.

The double guard can already be done with another token, but is something paladins want, so including it seems great. Having it stack would be better, as it gives it that little bit extra like the other class relics got.

I'm totally fine with adding your suggestions. I simply take issue with the idea that the token as given, minus the saves, is 'fine' or 'good enough for a class legendary'.