TOPIC: Final Ultra Rare Images

Thanks all!

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: RoSP required the 7 segments and one each of the 11 trade goods.

I suspect that given how Relic and Legendary recipes from recent years have required more than Relics and Legendaries from the year the Ro7P came out, that we shouldn't be surprised if the Teeth transmute requires more than the Ro7P did.

And we shouldn't complain about it, right? Right? RIGHT?

Honestly, I really hope we don't complain. If I hear, "this should have been announced when the teeth were announced" I may lose it just a little.

My intent was more to raise awareness of possibilities rather than curtail complaining.

Or at least point out that there are other data points that people may want to consider if they are drawing conclusions from the single data point of what the Ro7P took to make.

Trying to curtail complaining. A noble, but futile pursuit.

Not really excited about all the power creep here.

+2 Flame Blade: After the tragedy of the 2014 Viper Strike Fangs (which broke the curve in terms of damage output), I don't see why we're eager to repeat that mistake only worse this time. Back then the argument was that "oh the extra +2 damage is okay because it's poison damage and a lot of monsters are immune to poison." This time around it's +2 fire damage and you can't make that argument again about immunities. To make things worse, the Flame Blade is also usable by more classes (the Druid).

Lucky Light Mail / Lucky Plate Armor / Lucky Shield: Ugh. Don't see why you need to power creep over past UR armors with not only +1 saves but also a set bonus. I'd suggest ditching one or the other. Remove the +1 saves or ditch the set.

+3 Rod of the Meek: While the restrictions make sense, how are you realistically going to adjudicate it? Since players can freely swap out weapons, are DM's going to have to be on the look out for players who swap in the Rod when they aren't allowed to use it?

Arcane Bracelets & Arcane Earcuff: Not thrilled about more slot enhancers, though at least Jeff is willing to cap the total number of Charms and Ioun Stones. When comparing these to the Earcuff of Orbits and Charm Bracelets, are Charm slots really equivalent to Ioun Stone slots? I thought historically Charm slots were slightly more valuable than Ioun Stone? What do people think?

Also, when you factor in that an additional 2 UR spots are for Charm of Glory and reprinted Charm of Brooching, it feels like we are going overboard with slot enhancers.

Speaking of overboard, I am also troubled by the sheer number of + damage (and particularly + spell damage) tokens. Arcane Belt + Ioun Stone Banshee Prism + Ring of the Drake. I'd be okay with one of them but why do we need THREE such damage enhancers?

I don't like that the Semi-Lich Skull is slotless. It really screws over all the other "imbued Psychic Power" tokens.

Last of all, given that we just recently restored healing balance by nerfing the Lenses of Divine Sight, I don't see why we are so eager to restore all that healing again. Taborlin's Key is not only slotless but when 2 players with keys are healed with Lenses of Divine Sight, they both get the +2 healing. I think the main problem is making it slotless when it should really be slotted instead.

+2 Flaming Blade

Note that +2 Viper Strike Fang does not include druid and druid in the proofing doc is not very swordy. Can a monk wield two of these due to VSF precedent?

Arcane Belt

While "you cast" may be clearer, the parentheses aren't any clearer.

Lenses of Agility

If an eye slot UR exists that is just +4 DEX, that is a better token to own than Lenses of the Fae. It just is. Can come up with scenarios where you would run LotF instead - if +4 oddened your DEX *and* if 50% mattered significantly. Otherwise, just getting better.

I get some of why this got a massive power jump from when it was +2 DEX. Why would anyone at this point care about Lenses of the Fae, well, besides those who already have them and don't have infinite disposable income. Well, and anyone who sees the progression of tokens and starts thinking "Next will be a +4 DEX and +1 Saves [or +2 AC or whatever]", which, in isolation, isn't going to change behavior but as part of a general progression across tokens of better, better, better, might actually lead someone to just give up on caring about the new bauble.

That's with no other ability. For rogue players who weren't concerned with non-bows and non-xbows, this is a functional reprint with +4 DEX. I'm reaching that point quickly where I just don't see why I care about anything new besides TEs, but, then, there are all of these "new players" [who apparently are going to stock up on a bunch of URs] that will.

Btw, since the only tokens with "Agility" in the name are two rares, it would be appropriate for Lenses of Swift Sight or, apparently, the very first Cheetah token to exist.

Lucky

I'd also put the math being on the side of Lucky being better than older options. But, some of those old options are older than Redoubt, so the natural progression of everything getting better suggests these are okay.

Ring of the Drake

"to" could be replaced with "with" and there should be line space.

Semi-Lich Skull

I'm with Andrew that this isn't likely to impact Teeth sales much as is. Just being psychic is worth 4hp. Big dropoff in value for new Teeth was with 5th. So, I'm going to spend $40 or whatever depressed price there is for 6th and 7th Teeth just to go from 4hp to 7hp? To get some of the sketchy special abilities that come with 1, 2, or 3 Teeth? The relative value should be on having one more Tooth. But, whatever, changing this now seems pointless.

Ring of Wonder

So, let's see. Pros - Wonder is quite limited presently, not forcing players to use the neck slot makes all other neck slot items better [wait, is this actually a pro?], Amulet of Wonder is not a good UR and gets worse over time while we just gained an additional ring slot so it becomes vastly easier to justify being Wonder-ful. Cons - Doesn't this completely kill any reason to run Amulet of Wonder? AoW already required a massive sacrifice to run instead of other URs. So, I've never actually run AoW even though I own more than one. By moving to ring slot, seems that much less likely to get a power ability since ring was less of a sacrifice and, going forward for many, much less of a sacrifice. So, even if you owned AoW, you would be getting less value out of it. Of course, could do a trade-in!!!!

Look, expanding Wonder to more people is fine. Moving it out of neck has some benefits as forever locking it to neck will mean AoW will only get used when it's broken or TEing. But, ring devalues AoW far more than, say, the build diversity of Crown of Wonder or Eyes of Wonder or Belt of Wonder or whatever that isn't about to go to three slots.

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: RoSP required the 7 segments and one each of the 11 trade goods.

I suspect that given how Relic and Legendary recipes from recent years have required more than Relics and Legendaries from the year the Ro7P came out, that we shouldn't be surprised if the Teeth transmute requires more than the Ro7P did.

And we shouldn't complain about it, right? Right? RIGHT?

Honestly, I really hope we don't complain. If I hear, "this should have been announced when the teeth were announced" I may lose it just a little.

My intent was more to raise awareness of possibilities rather than curtail complaining.

Or at least point out that there are other data points that people may want to consider if they are drawing conclusions from the single data point of what the Ro7P took to make.

Trying to curtail complaining. A noble, but futile pursuit.

Trying to curtail complaining really irks me. If you wanted to do that, you really should have announced it in the first post of this thread, so we knew it was coming.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Here is the "functional re-print" but in another slot of the Amulet of Wonder. It would replace the +3 Rod of the Meek.

So, what happens if you equip the Ring AND the Amulet?

Nothing special I suppose. The effects are identical, so the same as wearing one.

I might try and convince you otherwise.

I don’t think they should necessarily ‘stack’ but i also don’t think they should be redundant either.

Maybe to rectify that, the ‘set bonus’ of whatever you choose for the year (be a troll, grow another head, wings, etc) and a standing D6 bonus like previous years, with some modifications to make the D6 roll less meh/avoid the HoP option.

That way, they aren’t wearing a useless token, and a single token only invokes the normal cool effect, but the second procs some randomization.

(Plus, this ultimately outclasses the amulet in every way otherwise as a neck vs ring slot, so it gives a reason for the amulet to still see some play)

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: RoSP required the 7 segments and one each of the 11 trade goods.

I suspect that given how Relic and Legendary recipes from recent years have required more than Relics and Legendaries from the year the Ro7P came out, that we shouldn't be surprised if the Teeth transmute requires more than the Ro7P did.

And we shouldn't complain about it, right? Right? RIGHT?

Honestly, I really hope we don't complain. If I hear, "this should have been announced when the teeth were announced" I may lose it just a little.

My intent was more to raise awareness of possibilities rather than curtail complaining.

Or at least point out that there are other data points that people may want to consider if they are drawing conclusions from the single data point of what the Ro7P took to make.

Trying to curtail complaining. A noble, but futile pursuit.

Trying to curtail complaining really irks me. If you wanted to do that, you really should have announced it in the first post of this thread, so we knew it was coming.

Which is worse? Whining? Or whining about whining?

Harlax wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Harlax wrote: RoSP required the 7 segments and one each of the 11 trade goods.

I suspect that given how Relic and Legendary recipes from recent years have required more than Relics and Legendaries from the year the Ro7P came out, that we shouldn't be surprised if the Teeth transmute requires more than the Ro7P did.

And we shouldn't complain about it, right? Right? RIGHT?

Honestly, I really hope we don't complain. If I hear, "this should have been announced when the teeth were announced" I may lose it just a little.

My intent was more to raise awareness of possibilities rather than curtail complaining.

Or at least point out that there are other data points that people may want to consider if they are drawing conclusions from the single data point of what the Ro7P took to make.

Trying to curtail complaining. A noble, but futile pursuit.

Trying to curtail complaining really irks me. If you wanted to do that, you really should have announced it in the first post of this thread, so we knew it was coming.

Which is worse? Whining? Or whining about whining?

The worst thing is whining about increasing nested quote levels.

Ian Lee wrote: Lenses of Agility

If an eye slot UR exists that is just +4 DEX, that is a better token to own than Lenses of the Fae. It just is. Can come up with scenarios where you would run LotF instead - if +4 oddened your DEX *and* if 50% mattered significantly. Otherwise, just getting better.

I get some of why this got a massive power jump from when it was +2 DEX. Why would anyone at this point care about Lenses of the Fae, well, besides those who already have them and don't have infinite disposable income. Well, and anyone who sees the progression of tokens and starts thinking "Next will be a +4 DEX and +1 Saves [or +2 AC or whatever]", which, in isolation, isn't going to change behavior but as part of a general progression across tokens of better, better, better, might actually lead someone to just give up on caring about the new bauble.

That's with no other ability. For rogue players who weren't concerned with non-bows and non-xbows, this is a functional reprint with +4 DEX. I'm reaching that point quickly where I just don't see why I care about anything new besides TEs, but, then, there are all of these "new players" [who apparently are going to stock up on a bunch of URs] that will.

Btw, since the only tokens with "Agility" in the name are two rares, it would be appropriate for Lenses of Swift Sight or, apparently, the very first Cheetah token to exist.

I agree here. +3 dex instead of +4 is honestly as high as it should go. Lenses of the Fey is slightly better if they are both +3, but this one has the sneak attack to give it a role. Please consider making this one +3 dex at most.

Ian Lee wrote: Lucky

I'd also put the math being on the side of Lucky being better than older options. But, some of those old options are older than Redoubt, so the natural progression of everything getting better suggests these are okay.

These are the best armor slots to come out at UR and under as printed. Fewer items to trigger a set bonus, and top tier AC with a save bonus instead of a save penalty. I don't think that is OK, but I also seem to have been unconvincing.

Braxton wrote: The worst thing is whining about increasing nested quote levels.

Nested quotes in general. Delete stuff if you can folks....lol.

Templar wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Here is the "functional re-print" but in another slot of the Amulet of Wonder. It would replace the +3 Rod of the Meek.

So, what happens if you equip the Ring AND the Amulet?

Nothing special I suppose. The effects are identical, so the same as wearing one.

I might try and convince you otherwise.

I don’t think they should necessarily ‘stack’ but i also don’t think they should be redundant either.

Maybe to rectify that, the ‘set bonus’ of whatever you choose for the year (be a troll, grow another head, wings, etc) and a standing D6 bonus like previous years, with some modifications to make the D6 roll less meh/avoid the HoP option.

That way, they aren’t wearing a useless token, and a single token only invokes the normal cool effect, but the second procs some randomization.

(Plus, this ultimately outclasses the amulet in every way otherwise as a neck vs ring slot, so it gives a reason for the amulet to still see some play)

A Wonder-ful set bonus? Interesting. Whereas this, as written, buries AoW outside of doing silly things or if you somehow ended up with no actual better neck item to wear (like it's your only UR or something), a set bonus could actually upvalue AoW some to where maybe it would be worth using besides on my Wonder-ful Runs.

Ring of Wonder is great. Especially since most of the class relic/legendary are neck slots, that was going to make the effect very rarely used going forward. But ring has much more flexibility.

I would like to see Eldritch Runestone and UR Special return some day too.