TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images

Jeff Martin wrote: Thanks all! It is getting late folks! Y'all better get to bed. Thanks for staying up with the crazy dude making tokens in his basement.

I'm now picturing Jeff in a basement with something like a button press, furiously churning out tokens by hand.

BeLinda Mathie wrote: Ralston’s and Benrow’s are flipped vertically in the image. (The monk relic is next to the ranger legendary, and the ranger relic is next to the monk legendary.)

Just in case this post was overlooked, the Transmuted Tokens image is still showing:
Paladin Relic/Paladin Legendary
Barbarian Relic/Barbarian Legendary
Monk Relic/Ranger Legendary
Ranger Relic/Monk Legendary

I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

Xavon wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Brad F wrote: It would seem that capping the guard/ entire game at 2 and using AoG in the recipe would have been a good compromise. So if the recipe does end up requiring an AoG, I wonder who would give that up for making this weapon if they only have 1?
(I also liked the idea of +1 hit for party as part of the paladins inspirational leadership, but I digress)

Including an oop UR as part of the recipe for a Class Legendary would have been terrible.

100% agree

Charm of Avarice begs to differ.

If there are two (or more) recipes, one that is cheaper but needs an OOP UR, and one that is more expensive but doesn't, that should be fine.

I agree that just flat out including it in the only recipe is not fair or good.

CoA is definitely not a Class Legendary.

Arnold wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Brad F wrote: It would seem that capping the guard/ entire game at 2 and using AoG in the recipe would have been a good compromise. So if the recipe does end up requiring an AoG, I wonder who would give that up for making this weapon if they only have 1?
(I also liked the idea of +1 hit for party as part of the paladins inspirational leadership, but I digress)

Including an oop UR as part of the recipe for a Class Legendary would have been terrible.

100% agree

Charm of Avarice begs to differ.

If there are two (or more) recipes, one that is cheaper but needs an OOP UR, and one that is more expensive but doesn't, that should be fine.

I agree that just flat out including it in the only recipe is not fair or good.

CoA is definitely not a Class Legendary.

It also did not require an OOP UR at time of its Print.

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

Justice wrote: With the extended range on stunning strike, how often do you monks expect to be locking down fights?

I'll try to keep better track at GenCon, but at Origins I would estimate I had a ~70% rate of landing a stun on a mob. But ~33% of the time the creature died that round anyway. So out of 3 combats I would get ~1.4 rounds of stun.

The the Legendary necklace I expect to land a stun ~80%, and for them to die that round less (~25%). Which makes ~1.8 rounds of stun in 3 fights. And I will gain a ring slot back.

Those numbers would be decreased due to stun immunities.

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

'From this years set' is the most telling part of your post. You make multiple legendaries, so of course you will make the best paladin weapon. But for dedicated paladins who dont make all the legendaries to max out, it would have been nice to offer a class legendary that enticed them to splurge/make a push for their first or second legendary item ever...because it is just too neat to pass up. It doesnt have to be overpowered, but it needs to feel special.

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

I would like to see it changed to "1/game may FoB at Range for room". But I doubt it will happen.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

I would like to see it changed to "1/game may FoB at Range for room". But I doubt it will happen.

That would be MUCH better! That would push it over the line to worth making for me.

David Harris wrote:

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

Is your argument that these effects aren't better than what the Barbarians are getting? 3 rare tokens and an UR ring token rolled into the neck slot.

Extra Greater Rage is +6 damage for a room. Fury is a mock-20.

I'm still inclined to say the Monks have it better.