TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images

David Harris wrote:

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

+4 damage in the neck is roughly double the damage of Valhalla / Stu's and the Monk slides twice. You lose some To hit with the exchange, however if you were using gloves of the Flying Fist now you can slot in Str gloves - sure you only attack with melee at range once, but you can revert to returning Shurikens after that.

The monk in my party is already asking if we can come up with enough stuff to build one for him. Of course, he didn't look at any of the prior versions, so this one is the first one he has seen.

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote:

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

Is your argument that these effects aren't better than what the Barbarians are getting? 3 rare tokens and an UR ring token rolled into the neck slot.

Extra Greater Rage is +6 damage for a room. Fury is a mock-20.

I'm still inclined to say the Monks have it better.

Not comparing at all, just saying Monk Relic feels weak for "the big item" for monks. I have no opinion on the Barbarian item as I haven't spent as much time comparing it to current likely builds, as I have with the monk. I'll take your word for it Barbarian is under powered too and should be boosted!

I must be missing something. People keep talking about the Monk Legendary allowing ranged Furry of Blows only once per room, but reading the token it looks to me that it is a permanent effect, just like Gloves of the Flying Fist. What am I missing?

Kirk Bauer wrote: I must be missing something. People keep talking about the Monk Legendary allowing ranged Furry of Blows only once per room, but reading the token it looks to me that it is a permanent effect, just like Gloves of the Flying Fist. What am I missing?

Relic is ranged FoB once per room. Legendary is "always on"

Kirk Bauer wrote: I must be missing something. People keep talking about the Monk Legendary allowing ranged Furry of Blows only once per room, but reading the token it looks to me that it is a permanent effect, just like Gloves of the Flying Fist. What am I missing?

Relic is once per room

Ahh, just looking at the wrong token in that case Thanks.

Endgame wrote:

David Harris wrote:

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

+4 damage in the neck is roughly double the damage of Valhalla / Stu's and the Monk slides twice. You lose some To hit with the exchange, however if you were using gloves of the Flying Fist now you can slot in Str gloves - sure you only attack with melee at range once, but you can revert to returning Shurikens after that.

The monk in my party is already asking if we can come up with enough stuff to build one for him. Of course, he didn't look at any of the prior versions, so this one is the first one he has seen.

Yeah it's the newbie v. vet argument isn't it. +2 damage ring that let's you chuck returning shurikens is great for new players; but old timers that have gloves of flying fists don't really care about the damage ring that much. They can already attack at range every round with +3/+5 Viper daggers and probably have something like Ring of Frost equipped already for extra damage, so not an upgrade for them.

I just think at Relic level both new players and old timers should feel like they are getting some that helps them.

David Harris wrote:

Endgame wrote:

David Harris wrote:

Arnold wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

So Monks lose -2 range dmg, and returning Shuriken. They pick up a ranged FoB use per room, +2 melee damage, and expanded stun.

Compare to barbarians who get +1 Rage and +1 Fury.

I think the barbarians have more to grumble about here.

Both can still equip the UR recipe token as they are in different slots, so they don't really lose them. Also the monk already has expanded stun with the rare Ring of Stunning Fist, so the relic adds an extra rare ability and the once per room ranged attack is about rare level ability (as full range is UR level, so it is below), and +2 damage is also rare level ability. So you pay the cost of making the relic to add 3 rare level abilities in the most competitive slot there is.

+4 damage in the neck is roughly double the damage of Valhalla / Stu's and the Monk slides twice. You lose some To hit with the exchange, however if you were using gloves of the Flying Fist now you can slot in Str gloves - sure you only attack with melee at range once, but you can revert to returning Shurikens after that.

The monk in my party is already asking if we can come up with enough stuff to build one for him. Of course, he didn't look at any of the prior versions, so this one is the first one he has seen.

Yeah it's the newbie v. vet argument isn't it. +2 damage ring that let's you chuck returning shurikens is great for new players; but old timers that have gloves of flying fists don't really care about the damage ring that much. They can already attack at range every round with +3/+5 Viper daggers and probably have something like Ring of Frost equipped already for extra damage, so not an upgrade for them.

I just think at Relic level both new players and old timers should feel like they are getting some that helps them.

They also like to use Tulz with Leap Attack potions.
Well hey now I can stop drinking one
Every time it’s a Ranged combat.
As there not cheap.

Milambus (Jake) wrote:

David Harris wrote: I'll throw in one more appeal for the Monk relic to include the ability to FOB at range all the time, instead of once per room. The relic as printed feels like a step back from UR/Rare build and 5 stars always feel like a step up. I guess the assumption is most high rollers will continue to Legendary where it's not a problem.

When I showed my son (long serving Monk) the original iteration (early in development) of the Monk relic he flipped out with excitement. I told him it would most likely have its power reduced. I showed him the latest version and he comment that it didn't help him at all and what a disappointment.

No one else is commenting on it so it must be fine. But as the Paladin, i'm excited about the relic/legendary holy avenger that is getting so much attention. But as a Monk advocate disappointed by the Monk relic, it just doesn't give the Monk anything it doesn't already have.

I would like to see it changed to "1/game may FoB at Range for room". But I doubt it will happen.

I would like to see this as well.

I feel bad for your son; the relic is not a very good step up from a UR neck with the 1/room restriction.

That said, I am REALLY happy with the legendary. ^{So I am afraid to talk about it.}

Hi all! I've been asked to chime in on the power creep before it's too late (or maybe it already is too late):

Holy Avengers:

1. Jeff, you're really handicapping yourself in the future with the auto-kill of Evil Outsider. Evil Outsider is such a broad category. I would suggest changing this to just double or triple damage on Evil Outsiders instead. That is definitely more manageable.

2. Also, I think the extra Guard is worrying since it stacks. Guarding three players is too strong.

3. Also, you should clarify how Grace works with rerolls. There are way too many re-roll effects now. I would suggest that you cannot use rerolls with Grace (and that either roll or both could trigger Kent's artifact effect).


Barbarian Medallion: No issues. Glad that Fury was changed from being an automatic 20 (which would create issues with auto-kill weapons) to just being an automatic crit, which is more balanced. Thanks.


Monk Necklace:

1. The "melee can attack as ranged" has consistently been a power balance problem with monks since they can just completely ignore ranged. At least before, they had to sacrifice their gloves slot for it. Now, all top level monks just get the ability for free with this necklace. I really think you should just drop the ability.

2. +1 use of Psychic Powers is problematic because it's stackable. Right now the big issue is Tier 5 Mind Shield which lets you completely ignore Will saves. Being able to do so 3 times is overly strong. Though at this point, I think the better solution is to just errata Mind Shield to tone it down.


Ranger Pendant: While both Ranger types are overly strong (dual-wielding vs Legendary bow), I'm not sure why this provides a damage boost just for the ranged version, which already benefits from the obscenely overpowered Io's bow with 18-20 criticals.

While I don't mind Animal Friend, it's only a matter of time before the Rangers whine about consuming polymorph potions and demand the ability to reuse it (like the Druids did with Polymorph, resulting in their Legendary last year which means they never have to turn in a polymorph potion again).


Charm of Timely Aid: At first glance it seems okay, but it can result in a lot of healing. 20% chance of healing 10 HP every combat. More importantly, while most of the rerolls seem to involve saving throws, this could get complicated and confusing if there are ever any rerolls for initiative. If you roll a 3 and then reroll, do you still get the healing? If you roll a 3, reroll, and then roll another 3, do you get 10 + 10 = 20 healing?

Incognito wrote:
Monk Necklace:

1. The "melee can attack as ranged" has consistently been a power balance problem with monks since they can just completely ignore ranged. At least before, they had to sacrifice their gloves slot for it. Now, all top level monks just get the ability for free with this necklace. I really think you should just drop the ability.

2. +1 use of Psychic Powers is problematic because it's stackable. Right now the big issue is Tier 5 Mind Shield which lets you completely ignore Will saves. Being able to do so 3 times is overly strong. Though at this point, I think the better solution is to just errata Mind Shield to tone it down.

As I've been vocal about this, I'll chime in -- I agree with Incognito, drop this from both relic and legendary and let's do something different for the Monk. Maybe bring back Quivering Palm effect on legendary and give them an auto kill on a 20 (1/game); maybe on the relic natty 20 slide deals triple damage or something else cool. Or some kind of Ki Power.

I do agree GoFF letting Monks ignore ranged is overpowered; but still contend if left on the relic if should be constant rather than once per room Or all rounds for 1 combat...but better to remove altogether.

Edit: Also just noticed the Dark Disciple's Shirt allows a "different" Psychic power to be used, Monk legendary should allow a "different" on too.

kurtreznor wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

'From this years set' is the most telling part of your post. You make multiple legendaries, so of course you will make the best paladin weapon. But for dedicated paladins who dont make all the legendaries to max out, it would have been nice to offer a class legendary that enticed them to splurge/make a push for their first or second legendary item ever...because it is just too neat to pass up. It doesnt have to be overpowered, but it needs to feel special.

+1
I only have 3 legendary tokens, Thor’s, CoA, and Surtr’s. What they all have in common is that I can use them with any class. A class legendary does need to be special enough to make me want to buy it or make it. The Holy avenger missed the mark. It’s clearly the most divisive token of this year. You either don’t like the current Holy avenger because it’s too week or because it’s too strong. I put the current +5 Holy avenger as the 6th best weapon on my list, it’s probably going to go down as the worst of the legendary class tokens when it’s all said and done as well.
But as I stated before I think this ship has sailed, and the only think left to figure out is the grammar on the token.