TOPIC: Final Transmuted Images

Raven wrote: Ava's +5 Holy Avenger

I had a random last-minute thought, re: the +Guard, and about how playing a Paladin means making sacrifices...

What if it was "May give up 1 TC for +1 to Guard" ?

To expand: Give up 1 Treasure Chip (Max) to allow +1 (Max) to the number of players guarded. The additional Guard would last all game. The decision would have to be made in Coaching, and the -1 TC would be recorded on the party card for the paladin's final treasure total.

Honestly, I doubt most people would take advantage of that, because sacrificing a Treasure Chip is unthinkable () but... it's an idea.

Meh, if I played Paladin, I would do it in a heartbeat. However I'm also one of the few (maybe the only?) purple/BiS level player who only uses one TE, and only because it helps the rest of the party. I'd rather have tokens that do something in the dungeon, rather than get me more UCs to haul or covert. Then again, my luck is highly variable and tends towards the terrible side.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Raven wrote: Ava's +5 Holy Avenger

I had a random last-minute thought, re: the +Guard, and about how playing a Paladin means making sacrifices...

What if it was "May give up 1 TC for +1 to Guard" ?

To expand: Give up 1 Treasure Chip (Max) to allow +1 (Max) to the number of players guarded. The additional Guard would last all game. The decision would have to be made in Coaching, and the -1 TC would be recorded on the party card for the paladin's final treasure total.

Honestly, I doubt most people would take advantage of that, because sacrificing a Treasure Chip is unthinkable () but... it's an idea.

It is a terrible idea that should never happen, but you could call it a Vow of Poverty and that is almost cool enough to say it should happen!

I would suggest such an ability would be called "tithing" although I love the sound of Vow of Poverty. I can say with certainty that I would use it at least once per year, just to justify it's existence.

Let me run with you, and I'll let you tithe even before you get the legendary. Of course, I think tithe is 10%, so I should get 2/20 chips.

David Harris wrote:

Incognito wrote:
Monk Necklace:

1. The "melee can attack as ranged" has consistently been a power balance problem with monks since they can just completely ignore ranged. At least before, they had to sacrifice their gloves slot for it. Now, all top level monks just get the ability for free with this necklace. I really think you should just drop the ability.

2. +1 use of Psychic Powers is problematic because it's stackable. Right now the big issue is Tier 5 Mind Shield which lets you completely ignore Will saves. Being able to do so 3 times is overly strong. Though at this point, I think the better solution is to just errata Mind Shield to tone it down.

As I've been vocal about this, I'll chime in -- I agree with Incognito, drop this from both relic and legendary and let's do something different for the Monk. Maybe bring back Quivering Palm effect on legendary and give them an auto kill on a 20 (1/game); maybe on the relic natty 20 slide deals triple damage or something else cool. Or some kind of Ki Power.

I do agree GoFF letting Monks ignore ranged is overpowered; but still contend if left on the relic if should be constant rather than once per room Or all rounds for 1 combat...but better to remove altogether.

Edit: Also just noticed the Dark Disciple's Shirt allows a "different" Psychic power to be used, Monk legendary should allow a "different" on too.

Probably too late but +1 to dumping the GoFF ability. With the Gloves I never have to worry about ranged during build design, but I do lose the slot. And still, it's a phenomenal trade off. Plus I like the Quivering Palm effect. Was super fun playing a Monk back in the AD&D days because of this.

Rob F wrote: Probably too late but +1 to dumping the GoFF ability. With the Gloves I never have to worry about ranged during build design, but I do lose the slot. And still, it's a phenomenal trade off. Plus I like the Quivering Palm effect. Was super fun playing a Monk back in the AD&D days because of this.

Aren't we arguing against instant kill effects nearly everywhere else?
I loved quivering palm, I love the 5 point palm exploding heart technique, but we should probably avoid them in a team game.

David Harris wrote:

Incognito wrote:
Monk Necklace:

1. The "melee can attack as ranged" has consistently been a power balance problem with monks since they can just completely ignore ranged. At least before, they had to sacrifice their gloves slot for it. Now, all top level monks just get the ability for free with this necklace. I really think you should just drop the ability.

2. +1 use of Psychic Powers is problematic because it's stackable. Right now the big issue is Tier 5 Mind Shield which lets you completely ignore Will saves. Being able to do so 3 times is overly strong. Though at this point, I think the better solution is to just errata Mind Shield to tone it down.

As I've been vocal about this, I'll chime in -- I agree with Incognito, drop this from both relic and legendary and let's do something different for the Monk. Maybe bring back Quivering Palm effect on legendary and give them an auto kill on a 20 (1/game); maybe on the relic natty 20 slide deals triple damage or something else cool. Or some kind of Ki Power.

I do agree GoFF letting Monks ignore ranged is overpowered; but still contend if left on the relic if should be constant rather than once per room Or all rounds for 1 combat...but better to remove altogether.

Edit: Also just noticed the Dark Disciple's Shirt allows a "different" Psychic power to be used, Monk legendary should allow a "different" on too.

I agree 1000%, as I've said repeatedly. The Monk's ability to attack with Melee at range is incredibly overpowered and unbalanced. I think it should be removed from the Relic and Legendary, and I think the GoFF should be revised or removed. There must be Monk abilities to add to the tokens (if more are even needed) that aren't as broken.

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

Arnold wrote:

Incognito wrote: While I don't mind Animal Friend, it's only a matter of time before the Rangers whine about consuming polymorph potions and demand the ability to reuse it (like the Druids did with Polymorph, resulting in their Legendary last year which means they never have to turn in a polymorph potion again).

As I recall, the polymorph potion on Iktomi's was all Jeff's idea. I don't think there was a Druid lobby that pushed for this. This was the original design of the legendary.

If anything, the Druid legendary lost some of its oomph when it was decided that the a player can polymorph back and forth from Human > Polymorph instantaneously as often as they'd like.

Agreed, losing the ability to polymorph into multiple creatures was a big reduction in power, and I hope it's reversed. The ability to polymorph with a potion without turning it in is neat in concept and I'm glad it's there, but it's not likely to be used often (if ever) because polymorph potion damage wheels are currently less than the Legendary damage wheel.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Incognito wrote: While I don't mind Animal Friend, it's only a matter of time before the Rangers whine about consuming polymorph potions and demand the ability to reuse it (like the Druids did with Polymorph, resulting in their Legendary last year which means they never have to turn in a polymorph potion again).

As I recall, the polymorph potion on Iktomi's was all Jeff's idea. I don't think there was a Druid lobby that pushed for this. This was the original design of the legendary.

If anything, the Druid legendary lost some of its oomph when it was decided that the a player can polymorph back and forth from Human > Polymorph instantaneously as often as they'd like.

Agreed, losing the ability to polymorph into multiple creatures was a big reduction in power, and I hope it's reversed. The ability to polymorph with a potion without turning it in is neat in concept and I'm glad it's there, but it's not likely to be used often (if ever) because polymorph potion damage wheels are currently less than the Legendary damage wheel.

You will not always use a potion for he damage wheel, just being able to cast spells while changed allows for immense power from potions if the Druid collects a few potions over a few years. Sure the elementals are probably better but maybe they’ll make an enhanced or exalted polymorph potion sometime that is all sacred or all dark rift and it might be worth transmuting even if it had no damage reduction. I have hopes, one day even a UR polymorph potion will come into existence, though I have my doubts it will be anything more than “soon”.

macXdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Incognito wrote: While I don't mind Animal Friend, it's only a matter of time before the Rangers whine about consuming polymorph potions and demand the ability to reuse it (like the Druids did with Polymorph, resulting in their Legendary last year which means they never have to turn in a polymorph potion again).

As I recall, the polymorph potion on Iktomi's was all Jeff's idea. I don't think there was a Druid lobby that pushed for this. This was the original design of the legendary.

If anything, the Druid legendary lost some of its oomph when it was decided that the a player can polymorph back and forth from Human > Polymorph instantaneously as often as they'd like.

Agreed, losing the ability to polymorph into multiple creatures was a big reduction in power, and I hope it's reversed. The ability to polymorph with a potion without turning it in is neat in concept and I'm glad it's there, but it's not likely to be used often (if ever) because polymorph potion damage wheels are currently less than the Legendary damage wheel.

You will not always use a potion for he damage wheel, just being able to cast spells while changed allows for immense power from potions if the Druid collects a few potions over a few years. Sure the elementals are probably better but maybe they’ll make an enhanced or exalted polymorph potion sometime that is all sacred or all dark rift and it might be worth transmuting even if it had no damage reduction. I have hopes, one day even a UR polymorph potion will come into existence, though I have my doubts it will be anything more than “soon”.

How does collecting a few potions over the years result in immense power if using one of those potions makes you less powerful than using the Legendary token in combat? Perhaps more powerful polymorph tokens will be created someday, but maybe they won't.

macXdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Incognito wrote: While I don't mind Animal Friend, it's only a matter of time before the Rangers whine about consuming polymorph potions and demand the ability to reuse it (like the Druids did with Polymorph, resulting in their Legendary last year which means they never have to turn in a polymorph potion again).

As I recall, the polymorph potion on Iktomi's was all Jeff's idea. I don't think there was a Druid lobby that pushed for this. This was the original design of the legendary.

If anything, the Druid legendary lost some of its oomph when it was decided that the a player can polymorph back and forth from Human > Polymorph instantaneously as often as they'd like.

Agreed, losing the ability to polymorph into multiple creatures was a big reduction in power, and I hope it's reversed. The ability to polymorph with a potion without turning it in is neat in concept and I'm glad it's there, but it's not likely to be used often (if ever) because polymorph potion damage wheels are currently less than the Legendary damage wheel.

You will not always use a potion for he damage wheel, just being able to cast spells while changed allows for immense power from potions if the Druid collects a few potions over a few years. Sure the elementals are probably better but maybe they’ll make an enhanced or exalted polymorph potion sometime that is all sacred or all dark rift and it might be worth transmuting even if it had no damage reduction. I have hopes, one day even a UR polymorph potion will come into existence, though I have my doubts it will be anything more than “soon”.

How does collecting a few potions over the years result in immense power if using one of those potions makes you less powerful than using the Legendary token in combat? Perhaps more powerful polymorph tokens will be created someday, but maybe they won't. It seems like if you're just using the polymorph ability to get some sort of damage resistance while casting spells it's not worth taking up the neck slot to outfit the Legendary token.

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.

Hoping I wake up to a different FINAL FINAL FINAL +5 Holy Avenger.

Tobin Blake wrote:

PalaDan wrote:

Rob F wrote:

Justice wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

ralykam wrote: Agreed, unfortunately. (+1 guard/1 game) isn’t legendary for me.

I feel the same, but I think that ship has sailed.

I agree, but it is better to know now going forward. TD will still get my money and I will save a grand over all by avoiding the HA in a year with such good UR's available. Really a win-win when you look at it.

It will be truly interesting how many HA will be made in the end.

The HA as is will be the first Legendary I make from this year's set. I don't see why any Paladin wouldn't want to be swinging the best weapon ever in the history of TD. I'm betting many will be made.

Let’s agree to disagree.

I very much agree with you PalaDan. The HA as it sits now is weaker in its average damage wheel (HA is a 10) than the Welfor's (10.5), has a bit of a potential for having a corner-case insta-kill (since to keep its unique ability viable would lock TPTB into having Evil Outsiders pretty much every year/dungeon) and is more class-limited than a Welfor's. The Lay on Hands bonus is nice, but a Paladin shouldn't be your primary healer, so this isn't really a big draw for me personally and Grace is an entirely new power altogether so...

Truthfully, I'd feel better commenting on whether or not the guard change is something that is a detractor or not if I had any clue as to the recipe to make this. The recipe will be key for whether or not it's worth making: If it requires an AoG on any path (whether to the Ava's or even just the +3), forcing the additional Guard into a 1x per game will actually make it a rather nasty step down for many Paladin players, especially since the AoG was already a required component for Giln's shield a couple years back.

As it sits now it's a very disappointing class-specific token (especially in light of the other class-specific tokens that have been/are being released) and is probably going to cause the Holy Avenger token go the way of the +2 Holy Great Sword in many Paladins' collection.