TOPIC: FINAL NOTES & IMAGES 2020

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

Let me repeat the math, it will take 150 uses of a key to make it get to 300 HP. That is every player, 10, getting healed 15 times by a spell. This number does not change. I'm glad you are going to be equipping this item, I am happy for you. Every party can equip whatever tokens they want. The key will still not be as good either in reality, or mathematically than any other UR Charm.

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote: Here is the math. All players must have the teeth equipped and every player must be healed by 15 spells to get to 300.

0 teeth required.

Every cast of Soothe wounds heals 10 players. It's trivial to hit 4 Casts of Soothe wounds, which already accounts for 80 damage from keys.

Every lods cast adds 4. Base party with cleric and druid has 18 heals for another 72 healing from keys.

Without even trying you hit 152 extra healing.

I would guess in must runs much of that will be over healing and not necessary for the run (people ending the run with slightly more HP) and not effect the outcome of the run.

Jeff Martin wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Two questions:
Does the +7 damage on the monk legendary also add to the damage when the FoB weapons are thrown? I'm assuming yes, but want to check.

Do you know if you have plans to change the effects of Gloves of the Flying Fists? What happens when a monk equips this legendary along with those gloves?

Yes...the +7 stacks.

No plans to nerf the GotFF. Nothing special happens when using the GofFF with the Legendary.

Jeff, my recommendation about nerfing the GotFF had nothing to do with interactions with the Legendary. It was about a Monk having that one UR getting the ability to be the best damage dealing class at both Ranged and Melee. Without it the Monk is the best at Melee but not as good at Ranged, with it the Monk is at the top of both. If the GotFF ability is too powerful to include on the Legendary token, it certainly seems too powerful to be a UR. My two cents at least.

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Philip Goodman wrote: Two questions:
Does the +7 damage on the monk legendary also add to the damage when the FoB weapons are thrown? I'm assuming yes, but want to check.

Do you know if you have plans to change the effects of Gloves of the Flying Fists? What happens when a monk equips this legendary along with those gloves?

Yes...the +7 stacks.

No plans to nerf the GotFF. Nothing special happens when using the GofFF with the Legendary.

Jeff, my recommendation about nerfing the GotFF had nothing to do with interactions with the Legendary. It was about a Monk having that one UR getting the ability to be the best damage dealing class at both Ranged and Melee. Without it the Monk is the best at Melee but not as good at Ranged, with it the Monk is at the top of both. If the GotFF ability is too powerful to include on the Legendary token, it certainly seems too powerful to be a UR. My two cents at least.

+1

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

5 casts of soothe wounds gets you to the same 10hp per person.

2 base
1 restore spell
1 crown of expertise
1 arcane set it carter's tome

Jeff Martin wrote:

Flik wrote: Why does the uncommon +1 shuriken have a different class restriction than the +2 shuriken?

I think, like all other shuriken printed, the rare needs to be Fighter, Monk, and Rogue only.

I will fix it. Thanks.

I would think Rangers should get shurikens, too.

And personally I agree with making the UC a Masterwork, and the R a +1, to match previous version. That said, if it was +1 Shuriken of Shadows with 1 Darkrift damage baked in (and Fighters, Monk, Ranger, & Rogue), I would not be insulted.

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

5 casts of soothe wounds gets you to the same 10hp per person.

2 base
1 restore spell
1 crown of expertise
1 arcane set it carter's tome

It doesn't automatically get you there, it only gets you there if each person needs the full bonus two points of healing on top of the base healing spell every time.

Xavon wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote:

Flik wrote: Why does the uncommon +1 shuriken have a different class restriction than the +2 shuriken?

I think, like all other shuriken printed, the rare needs to be Fighter, Monk, and Rogue only.

I will fix it. Thanks.

I would think Rangers should get shurikens, too.

And personally I agree with making the UC a Masterwork, and the R a +1, to match previous version. That said, if it was +1 Shuriken of Shadows with 1 Darkrift damage baked in (and Fighters, Monk, Ranger, & Rogue), I would not be insulted.

But rangers have never gotten to use them in the game before so I’m not sure now is the time to start.

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

5 casts of soothe wounds gets you to the same 10hp per person.

2 base
1 restore spell
1 crown of expertise
1 arcane set it carter's tome

Let’s assume two parties with all the same equipment, one with 10 Keys (about $1000) and one with 10 Shirts of Linked Healing (maybe $15). Keep everything constant, and only look at the delta to the cast healing due to these two tokens.

With 10 Keys, one Sooth Wounds grants +20 HP to the party.

With 10 Shirts, one Sooth Wounds grants 9x3 = 27 HP (+35%) at 2% of the cost. And, all the Cleric & Druid heals grant 50% more bonus healing, +2 per target vs +3, provided these two heal each other and not themselves.

If no one is worried about the power of the Shirts, I don’t see why anyone is concerned about the Keys.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

5 casts of soothe wounds gets you to the same 10hp per person.

2 base
1 restore spell
1 crown of expertise
1 arcane set it carter's tome

It doesn't automatically get you there, it only gets you there if each person needs the full bonus two points of healing on top of the base healing spell every time.

Sure thing. Any supplemental healing from cleric or druid on damaged characters should cover any loss from soothe wounds. However, we usually get hit with "everyone takes x damage" once or twice per run, which soothe wounds is prefect for. One of the n runs (n2?) felt like we got hit with that 3 or 4 times in the run.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

archmage78 wrote:

Endgame wrote: We will certainly be buying a key for every party member. If people hate the keys this much, maybe I'll be able to snag them for 60 to 75 each. Way way cheaper than tracking down 5 to 8 charms of synergy, and we will get more hp out of the key on the 3rd soothe wounds cast than out of 5 much more expensive charms of synergy.

10 charms of synergy would give the party 100 extra HP. It would take the keys being used 50 times to get that much. I have never seen that many people using that many healing spells. Your 3 sooth wounds will provide at most 30 extra healing. So, mathematically speaking, you will get far better usage out of the charms of synergy.

5 casts of soothe wounds gets you to the same 10hp per person.

2 base
1 restore spell
1 crown of expertise
1 arcane set it carter's tome

Let’s assume two parties with all the same equipment, one with 10 Keys (about $1000) and one with 10 Shirts of Linked Healing (maybe $15). Keep everything constant, and only look at the delta to the cast healing due to these two tokens.

With 10 Keys, one Sooth Wounds grants +20 HP to the party.

With 10 Shirts, one Sooth Wounds grants 9x3 = 27 HP (+35%) at 2% of the cost. And, all the Cleric & Druid heals grant 50% more bonus healing, +2 per target vs +3, provided these two heal each other and not themselves.

If no one is worried about the power of the Shirts, I don’t see why anyone is concerned about the Keys.

Agreed now that the key is slotted. I would compare with agate orb instead of the linked shirt though. One of 5 (up to 9) ioun slots compares better to one of 3 (up to 10) charm slots as opposed to 1 of 1 shirt slot.

Mike Steele wrote:

James Bennett wrote: I wanted to point out a handful of things at the rare level which seem off due to changes in this iteration:

+2 Shuriken
I'm excited to see a rare shuriken back in the set, but this feels like it will be overly strong. Like others have mentioned it seems like it needs to have the "Fighters, Monk & Rogue" class restriction put back on it like all of the other shurikens . Having it printed with a +2 to hit seems really strong (especially with Enchanter's Whetstone), and it is also odd to see it in the same set as the Mighty Sling given they serve similar (but distinct) purposes.
Suggestions to fix: Either take it back down to +1 (and the uncommon back to Masterwork) or remove the to-hit bonus add in some elemental damage like we've seen in the past (e.g. Shuriken of Shock or Shuriken of Venom ).

Ioun Stone Tourmaline Tear
I was really happy with this token through the development process until the last round. I'm not against changing it slightly, but I feel the new wording just complicates it. If this was one of the small number of rares a very new player is exposed to I'm not sure its purpose would be completely clear due to the "to hit spell" language. I've never heard a DM say the monster used a "to hit" spell, and it feels likely that the clarification would be missed in the heat of the moment or would slow things down if people have to ask. This is also something which is up to the player to remember to track so it seems prudent to make it simpler.
Suggestions to fix: Either restore it to the wording from previous iterations so it is "+1 AC & -1 damage from ranged attacks (including spells)" or remove the secondary effect and just leave it at "+1 AC". I originally thought about suggesting replacing the damage reduction with something like "+1 HP" or "+1 to ___ saves" but both of those options felt like they encroached on other rare tokens (e.g. Tyr's Bracers or this year's Bracers of the Toad).

Bead of Bending
This is another token which feels like it was hit too quickly and now its power level directly conflicts with another token in the same set. See my description of the IS Tourmaline Tear above for a suggestion about how the current wording just complicates things since the same wording problem exists here, though I'm glad to see the wording is standardized across them. In addition, this token's effect is the same as the IS Tourmaline Tear right now except the IS also gets +1 AC. Given we only have one bead slot (for now anyways), it seems off that the IS gives more power since we can have 5 (or 7/9 at higher tiers) of them.
Suggestions to fix: Put this back to a -2 damage effect or change it to be something like "+2 AC against ranged attacks".

I also have a few suggestions for the UR as well based on changes in the last round:

Ring of the Drake
I'm fine with losing spell damage on this token but preserving the ranged damage bonus feels like it complicates things given the "to hit" spell interaction.
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Fire damage to melee & thrown weapons. Shurikens gain Returning effect."

Ioun Stone Banshee Prism
Same reasoning above applies for this token as well with the interaction around "to hit spells".
Suggestion to fix: Make the token read "+2 Sonic damage to attacks with physical projectiles". Not sure this suggestion holds up well, but I was attempting to use a different term to describe "ranged attacks" excluding spells entirely.

Arcane Belt
If we drop spell damage from the Ring of the Drake, it seems reasonable to drop melee damage from this token. Suggestions to fix: Make the token read "+2 to damage with Ranged attacks (including spells); +2 to healing Spells you cast" or change the name to "Arcane Belt of Focus" and change the effect slightly to "+2 to healing, damage spells & polymorph damage".

If the Arcane Belt changes to be a belt of focus these three tokens together would form a nice triangle this year with a +2 damage bonus across every attack type. With my suggestion above thrown weapons would be the only type to go above this with a +4 damage bonus, but it is still less than the +6 it is getting now. I also like this because it would leave a pure +2 damage with spells ioun stone open for next year to round out that "set".

This post is longer than I expected and feel free to take it, leave it or pull chunks out where it makes sense.

I've seen a couple of recommendations to drop Melee and Ranged from the Ring of the Drake. I'm OK with that, but if it happens, I hope that +2 to Polymorph damage is added in. Essentially make it a Belt of Focus.

I would like to see the current damage bonus stay on the Ring of the Drake. I’m not sure we should let it turn all the Shuriken return since it makes the +2 better than the Relic Hammer (do to returning). I would be more ok with the +2 Shuriken as a UR that way it doesn’t get the whetstone bonus, or drop it back to a +1

As for the Key, it went from must have to not even on my list.
At slotless why would you not get it, at charm it is two week for my build.
Why not make it a +2 added to all healing given by Druid and Cleric(like a Focus item). That way it’s a very good token for them since it makes them so there job better, it keeps the demand high while being slotted. (I have not read the books so there may be a good story reason this can’t be done).