TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marcques Domask wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marcques Domask wrote:

Endgame wrote: Other Reprints on my list:

Rare
+2 Cloak of Resistance

+1 on all these, as they are getting pretty difficult to find.

The other two on your list yes, but +2 cloak? Nah...

discount-dungeon.com/products/2-cloak-of-resistance?_pos=1&_sid=951e6f3e8&_ss=r
www.trenttokens.com/search?q=cloak+of+resistance
www.tdtavern.com/2-cloak-of-resistance.html?category_id=135

And I'd bet Mike has some in his forum store to boot.

The +2 Cloak is easy enough to find, its just more expensive than I'd like to see.

It seems like a core set item... like the TD version of Disenchant.

I’ll admit that I meant that it wasn’t at a reasonable price, aside from Discount Dungeon. It doesn’t seem like and $8+ item.

I don't want to derail this thread with a whole economics thing, so this will be my last post on this topic.

The cost of a new, random, token 10 pack from True Dungeon is $8.

If +2 Cloak of Resistance was in print, and you wanted a 50/50 chance of getting one from random packs, you'd need to buy 20 packs for $160.

Having a chase / BiS token cost within 20% of the cost of a single random pack is not bad at all - especially when it's 3 years out of print.

In Magic chase rares can easily hit 4x the cost of a pack or more while they are still in print, and 10x+ the cost of a pack once out of print.

On the other hand, if ~$8 is too much to pay for a given rare, I'd argue it's not needed for a reprint - keep the slot for something that might be worth $8 someday.

Core set rare reprints are running like 10cents, per a google search for Shivan Dragon.

Ya but Shivan hasn't been remotely competitive for years, and its been reprinted to death. I don't think its a fair comparison.

Royal assassin then? $1.30. I prefer the Disenchant example because its important to have and also cheap because its extremely frequently reprinted, but its a common so it doesn't hold up as well.

Since I haven't been big into magic for over a decade, pick which ever staple card has been reprinted 10+ times that is useful but is in a lot of decks. That is what the +2 Cloak of Resistance should be.

The fact it's 3.99 on Discount-Dungeon is a good sign. Honestly when making the recommendation, I just checked TD tavern and Trent Tokens, which is my bad for not checking more sites.

OK - now this will be my really real last post on this topic.

The early years of TD saw a pretty static set with a lot of reprints. That lasted through around 2006/7.

+2 Cloak of resistance has been printed twice in the last 13 years (counting 2020), with a 4 year gap, a 5 year gap, and a 4 year and counting gap.

It's not an "always in print staple."

The most expensive rare in the current Magic core set is Leyline of the Void, it costs more than 2x a pack, and has also been printed twice in the last 13 years. It's prior printing peaked at around 12x the cost of a single pack, and currently goes for around 5x the cost of a single pack.

My overarching point is that when a desirable rare token costs approximately the value of a token 10 pack, to me that does not signify either a problem, nor a scarcity that would demand a reprint.

That's just an opinion, I understand other people feel otherwise.

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marcques Domask wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Marcques Domask wrote:

Endgame wrote: Other Reprints on my list:

Rare
+2 Cloak of Resistance

+1 on all these, as they are getting pretty difficult to find.

The other two on your list yes, but +2 cloak? Nah...

discount-dungeon.com/products/2-cloak-of-resistance?_pos=1&_sid=951e6f3e8&_ss=r
www.trenttokens.com/search?q=cloak+of+resistance
www.tdtavern.com/2-cloak-of-resistance.html?category_id=135

And I'd bet Mike has some in his forum store to boot.

The +2 Cloak is easy enough to find, its just more expensive than I'd like to see.

It seems like a core set item... like the TD version of Disenchant.

I’ll admit that I meant that it wasn’t at a reasonable price, aside from Discount Dungeon. It doesn’t seem like and $8+ item.

I don't want to derail this thread with a whole economics thing, so this will be my last post on this topic.

The cost of a new, random, token 10 pack from True Dungeon is $8.

If +2 Cloak of Resistance was in print, and you wanted a 50/50 chance of getting one from random packs, you'd need to buy 20 packs for $160.

Having a chase / BiS token cost within 20% of the cost of a single random pack is not bad at all - especially when it's 3 years out of print.

In Magic chase rares can easily hit 4x the cost of a pack or more while they are still in print, and 10x+ the cost of a pack once out of print.

On the other hand, if ~$8 is too much to pay for a given rare, I'd argue it's not needed for a reprint - keep the slot for something that might be worth $8 someday.

Core set rare reprints are running like 10cents, per a google search for Shivan Dragon.

Ya but Shivan hasn't been remotely competitive for years, and its been reprinted to death. I don't think its a fair comparison.

Royal assassin then? $1.30. I prefer the Disenchant example because its important to have and also cheap because its extremely frequently reprinted, but its a common so it doesn't hold up as well.

Since I haven't been big into magic for over a decade, pick which ever staple card has been reprinted 10+ times that is useful but is in a lot of decks. That is what the +2 Cloak of Resistance should be.

The fact it's 3.99 on Discount-Dungeon is a good sign. Honestly when making the recommendation, I just checked TD tavern and Trent Tokens, which is my bad for not checking more sites.

That's just it though, none of the old classic core/printed 10+ times cards are remotely staples anymore. They are pure casual because they have all been eclipsed by power creep.

In order for this analogy to hold you would need a magic card that had both been reprinted several times and was still considered a staple. Something like maybe a fetch land.

My point isnt to quibble, I just dont think old core set magic cards are a good analogy because none of them are competitive.

The +2 cloak/beryl prism/ogre power items/etc still show up on almost every build list. We can debate what the right price them (for me $10 is a signal to reprint) but I dont think we should set the goal of driving their prices down to zero either.

I'm not going to comment on TD reprints, but I feel like the magic analogies are pretty bad so I will leave this here for people to use if they want:
mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern

I guess it might also worth noting that MtG printed more cards only in sets in 2018 (excluding all their supplemental precon products) than TD has printed in tokens in the past seven years, so they probably power creep at a much more accelerated rate.

Azzy wrote: I'm not going to comment on TD reprints, but I feel like the magic analogies are pretty bad so I will leave this here for people to use if they want:
mtg.dawnglare.com/?p=modern

I guess it might also worth noting that MtG printed more cards only in sets in 2018 (excluding all their supplemental precon products) than TD has printed in tokens in the past seven years, so they probably power creep at a much more accelerated rate.

Power creep in td is light years faster than power creep in magic. It’s a fundamental design tenant of magic to avoid power creep to keep the game sustainable.

The most powerful magic cards ever printed, and not just stuff like the power 9, but stuff like dual lands, counterspell, sol ring, lightning bolt, swords to plowshares, balance, etc. were printed in the first few sets.

Td does not share Magic’s design philosophy of avoiding power creep - and in fact the amount of melee boosting equipment you can stack up has been coming faster and faster.

It is true that creatures in magic are better than they used to be - that is a design choice to lead to more interactive games. Many other things, like mana acceleration, counter magic, and card drawing are worse than they used to be. Magic power is determined by the ecosystem of all cards one can choose in their deck - wizards curates this ecosystem via various formats - notably standard.

+1 Glacial Cane
5-6-7-8
+3 Cold damage (in wheel), FoB Compatible
Bard & Wizards: use as a wand, deals 7 cold damage to one enemy (but not consumed/turned in)
One Handed
Usable by: All

+2 Gladius of Dueling
3-4-5-6-7-8
+1 to hit and AC in melee (stackable)
Anyone can equip as offhand item, but only Ranger may attack with it as offhand weapon
One Handed
Usable by: Barbarian, Bard, Fighters, Paladin, Ranger, & Rogue

Crazy thought... Make the Fighter Legendary start with a weapon usable only by Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, (and Clerics?).

Then, in 2022, do a weapon Relic/Legendary for the same classes based off that same UR. By then it will have been 8 years since Welfor's came out, and it seems like there really ought to be more of a gap between the Legendary weapons used by all and those that are more restricted.

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... Make the Fighter Legendary start with a weapon usable only by Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, (and Clerics?).

Then, in 2022, do a weapon Relic/Legendary for the same classes based off that same UR. By then it will have been 8 years since Welfor's came out, and it seems like there really ought to be more of a gap between the Legendary weapons used by all and those that are more restricted.

I like this idea - I think I'd keep it to Barbarians and Fighters only. Maybe paladins. Definitely not clerics.

To differentiate from Avernon's which is quite strong, maybe a 1 handed weapon with a decent but not outstanding damage wheel (d10+5?), and abilities tacked on? Maybe the Sundering ability from Seh'Lahs, or the +2 Death Flail triple crit ability on nat-20 first slide?

Definitely dont include Paladin on any class restricted legendary weapon for awhile. We wouldnt want it to get nerfed into uselessness.....

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... Make the Fighter Legendary start with a weapon usable only by Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, (and Clerics?).

Then, in 2022, do a weapon Relic/Legendary for the same classes based off that same UR. By then it will have been 8 years since Welfor's came out, and it seems like there really ought to be more of a gap between the Legendary weapons used by all and those that are more restricted.

I like this idea - I think I'd keep it to Barbarians and Fighters only. Maybe paladins. Definitely not clerics.

To differentiate from Avernon's which is quite strong, maybe a 1 handed weapon with a decent but not outstanding damage wheel (d10+5?), and abilities tacked on? Maybe the Sundering ability from Seh'Lahs, or the +2 Death Flail triple crit ability on nat-20 first slide?

What if it was double to hit bonus instead of trying to match two handed weapons it would occupy a strictly different base. Attack vs damage.

Edit: Crap, I was going to say “6/8/10/12/14/16 as a plus 8 weapon one handed” but Welfor’s +5 is ... a lot worse then.

Not sure if this has been brought up in past threads. What are the thoughts on familiars?
Was thinking of something along these lines:

Wizards Familiar : Lizard
+1 CON, +1 AC, +1 FORT Save, -1 REFLEX Save
Cast one 1 level spell without marking off box/1 per game
Occupies: Wrist, Neck or Shin

Cleric's Familiar : Owl
+1 WIS, +1 AC, +1 Reflex Save, -1 FORT Save
+1 to your Healing Spells, Feather Fall 30'
Occupies: Neck or Back

A lot of possibilities for variations. Thoughts??

Spud

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... Make the Fighter Legendary start with a weapon usable only by Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, (and Clerics?).

Then, in 2022, do a weapon Relic/Legendary for the same classes based off that same UR. By then it will have been 8 years since Welfor's came out, and it seems like there really ought to be more of a gap between the Legendary weapons used by all and those that are more restricted.

I like this idea - I think I'd keep it to Barbarians and Fighters only. Maybe paladins. Definitely not clerics.

To differentiate from Avernon's which is quite strong, maybe a 1 handed weapon with a decent but not outstanding damage wheel (d10+5?), and abilities tacked on? Maybe the Sundering ability from Seh'Lahs, or the +2 Death Flail triple crit ability on nat-20 first slide?

What if it was double to hit bonus instead of trying to match two handed weapons it would occupy a strictly different base. Attack vs damage.

Edit: Crap, I was going to say “6/8/10/12/14/16 as a plus 8 weapon one handed” but Welfor’s +5 is ... a lot worse then.

Well, if Welfor's can transmute into a Holy Avenger.....

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Crazy thought... Make the Fighter Legendary start with a weapon usable only by Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians, (and Clerics?).

Then, in 2022, do a weapon Relic/Legendary for the same classes based off that same UR. By then it will have been 8 years since Welfor's came out, and it seems like there really ought to be more of a gap between the Legendary weapons used by all and those that are more restricted.

I like this idea - I think I'd keep it to Barbarians and Fighters only. Maybe paladins. Definitely not clerics.

To differentiate from Avernon's which is quite strong, maybe a 1 handed weapon with a decent but not outstanding damage wheel (d10+5?), and abilities tacked on? Maybe the Sundering ability from Seh'Lahs, or the +2 Death Flail triple crit ability on nat-20 first slide?

What if it was double to hit bonus instead of trying to match two handed weapons it would occupy a strictly different base. Attack vs damage.

Edit: Crap, I was going to say “6/8/10/12/14/16 as a plus 8 weapon one handed” but Welfor’s +5 is ... a lot worse then.

Well, if Welfor's can transmute into a Holy Avenger.....

Welfors plus a holy ur weapon might make a holy avenger?

I’d prefer to see holy weapons or ur weapons usable by paladins in melee be the relic transmute. I am not opposed to a legendary upgraydd for a double dose of holiness in the recipe department but could see the want to not re-collect older legendaries.