TOPIC: Time to start the 2021 Token dev process

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Ok, I'm not sure exactly where we went off the rails, but let's make sure we are discussing something constructive.

Should wizards have a weapon that allows them to have the abilities of other classes once an ability other classes don't have runs out?

If they should, shouldd druids also have such an ability?

I would submit they should not. Others may disagree.

I have no idea what you are referring to here.

What ability of other classes is the Wizard getting? The ability to continue to participate in combat and have the ability to have those attacks deal damage?

Could you specify what you are saying because I have no idea what you are referencing?

I feel that your proposed token gives wizards access to a very, very strong ranged weapon. One that, particularly if using their spell damage bonus, really doesnt force a difficult choice for them.

Those who stack melee (outside of the monk) generally have to choose between being able to hit at range or doing more melee damage.

Those who choose ranged as their primary mode often have to sacrifice damage to account for (nearly) always being able to attack.

I see this token as not forcing choices but making them easier. Stack all the spell damage, then equip this and be able to attack at ranged as well as anyone.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it feels too good to me.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: And it's probably not worth commenting on the Druid class having access to the skills of other classes...

Fair enough......

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I feel that your proposed token gives wizards access to a very, very strong ranged weapon. One that, particularly if using their spell damage bonus, really doesnt force a difficult choice for them.

Those who stack melee (outside of the monk) generally have to choose between being able to hit at range or doing more melee damage.

Those who choose ranged as their primary mode often have to sacrifice damage to account for (nearly) always being able to attack.

I see this token as not forcing choices but making them easier. Stack all the spell damage, then equip this and be able to attack at ranged as well as anyone.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it feels too good to me.

The thing to consider in this instance is that the weapon itself is the weakest attack available to the Wizard or that's my intention.

Every spell they cast has 2-25 more base damage and requires no slide. Every sliding spell hits on a much lower number and every spell can be used with the Mad Evoker's Charm to double the base damage.

Maybe having the familiar have no damage wheel but simply apply spell damage on a successful hit would be a good option.

The familiar is intended to act as an option to be useful in combat for situations where you run out of spells or wish to avoid casting a spell on a given turn due to combat being nearly finished.

The whole thing would be a null issue if Wizards had access to a 0 level cantrip spell that didn't have a static number of uses.

Currently when a Wizard runs out of spells they have no way to functionally participate in combat.
A melee strike or ranged strike from a Wizard who's not specifically built themselves to use those attack types is a nearly guaranteed miss. Scrolls gain no spell damage bonuses, cost actual money as consumable items and require expending one per cast to deal damage SIGNIFIGANTLY lower than even their weakest spell. Wands gain no spell damage bonuses, cost actual money as a consumable and deal SIGNIFIGANTLY lower damage than even their weakest spell. (There are a few tokens that give bonuses to scrolls and wand damages but they do not in any way compare to the damage of the weakest spell on the Wizards card at UR level or higher)

Wizards are designed as a pure damage class and are hampered with spell lists containing many unusable spells which are pre-selected and have limited castings.

The Ultra Rare token designed to work around this issue reduces the power of the traded spell by one level. In an actual game with Wizards and a spell book they could prepare any spell they wanted and would not be negatively affected like this.

The suggested design of the token exists to give a purely spellcasting Wizard a way to be a functional addition to the group when their pre-selected spells have been expended and simply give them a minimum amount of damage.

This is a problem specific to spellcasters as no sliding class can ever expend their "uses" of attacking with a weapon. No Ranger is going to find themselves unable to use their bow weapon to attack as they've expended their 12/20 quiver of arrows designated on the character card.


An infinite use cantrip with 0 or 1 damage against a targeted AC would resolve the issue, but that would require a complete rework of the class and has been HEAVILY argued against.

I can't speak for game designers, but perhaps, the wizards ability to do so much damage with the spells they have is supposed to be the trade off?

I mean, if we light a candle at both ends, it will burn twice as bright, but half as long.

I don't actually think one way or another, I'm simply providing counter arguments.

As an aside, in the main dungeon, how frequently have wizards ever run out of spells? I've done a few cabal runs as a Wizard and have literally never run out, even on NM.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I can't speak for game designers, but perhaps, the wizards ability to do so much damage with the spells they have is supposed to be the trade off?

I mean, if we light a candle at both ends, it will burn twice as bright, but half as long.

I don't actually think one way or another, I'm simply providing counter arguments.

As an aside, in the main dungeon, how frequently have wizards ever run out of spells? I've done a few cabal runs as a Wizard and have literally never run out, even on NM.

Wizards unfortunately do not do a high amount of damage compared to other classes.

In the main dungeon I've run out of spells during a sealed run and during rare level nightmare runs. Generally speaking it's only when the group is pushing difficulties or at higher level grind runs.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I can't speak for game designers, but perhaps, the wizards ability to do so much damage with the spells they have is supposed to be the trade off?

I mean, if we light a candle at both ends, it will burn twice as bright, but half as long.

I don't actually think one way or another, I'm simply providing counter arguments.

As an aside, in the main dungeon, how frequently have wizards ever run out of spells? I've done a few cabal runs as a Wizard and have literally never run out, even on NM.

Wizards unfortunately do not do a high amount of damage compared to other classes.

In the main dungeon I've run out of spells during a sealed run and during rare level nightmare runs. Generally speaking it's only when the group is pushing difficulties or at higher level grind runs.

I find a lot of the non-damaging spells not very effective during combat. I currenly equip bracelet of the zephyr and have run out of damaging spells without being in a group that pushes difficulty on occassion. These have been runs where combats take 3 or more rounds or where you have 4 combat rooms.

For grind style events spells are depleted.

Strange. The few times I've played Wizard, I've usually cast those non-blasting spells. Seems to wind up helping the party most of the time.

What about an UR that gives Wizards a roll from the wild magic table after casting a spell? Doesn't add spell slots or consistent damage, instead puts everyone in mortal danger.

Exbalz wrote: What about an UR that gives Wizards a roll from the wild magic table after casting a spell? Doesn't add spell slots or consistent damage, instead puts everyone in mortal danger.

While I love this idea thematically, I feel like it could be difficult for the DMs to have to to refer to a chart.

Fiddy wrote: Strange. The few times I've played Wizard, I've usually cast those non-blasting spells. Seems to wind up helping the party most of the time.

For Elf Wizard I have not yet cast invisibility. I have used Stoneskin in a group of newer players on normal difficulty since 5 damage reduction a hit to one player may actually trigger someday. Alterness is always cast.

I may have played Wizard once but don't recall.

I play Wizard nearly every run and almost NEVER cast the support spells.

Bob Chasan wrote: I play Wizard nearly every run and almost NEVER cast the support spells.

How often do you run out of spells (in the dungeon)?