TOPIC: Ultra Rare Token Ideas

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

It's a genuine recommendation, it's not that different from Runestone Fitting Base, which is slotless and allows a second Runestone slot.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

It's a genuine recommendation, it's not that different from Runestone Fitting Base, which is slotless and allows a second Runestone slot.

Its a bit different than, say, +2 damage from runestones. 2 extra ear slots turns into Arcane Eacuff, Orbits, Icecraig, and, say, Charming Earcuff. Make it slotted and a neck item, then it would be about right.

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

It's a genuine recommendation, it's not that different from Runestone Fitting Base, which is slotless and allows a second Runestone slot.

Its a bit different than, say, +2 damage from runestones. 2 extra ear slots turns into Arcane Eacuff, Orbits, Icecraig, and, say, Charming Earcuff. Make it slotted and a neck item, then it would be about right.

As a slotted neck item, it would be pretty useless. The neck slot is worth more than the earring slot, especially with the Class Legendaries. It could be limited to outfitting just one of them.

I'm just tossing it out there for Jeff to consider and see if there's anything in the idea he wants to use, which is the point of the thread.

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

It's a genuine recommendation, it's not that different from Runestone Fitting Base, which is slotless and allows a second Runestone slot.

Its a bit different than, say, +2 damage from runestones. 2 extra ear slots turns into Arcane Eacuff, Orbits, Icecraig, and, say, Charming Earcuff. Make it slotted and a neck item, then it would be about right.

As a slotted neck item, it would be pretty useless. The neck slot is worth more than the earring slot, especially with the Class Legendaries. It could be limited to outfitting just one of them.

I'm just tossing it out there for Jeff to consider and see if there's anything in the idea he wants to use, which is the point of the thread.

Neck slot is actually fairly open for my party, so I wouldn't call it useless. Of 10 players, only one has a class relic (ranger), though I may build the Cleric one depending on how it looks in the end.

I also really like the idea of a transmuted +1 level neck item that has some other perk - say +1 level and +2 all attributes. Again, targeting people who aren't going to make the relics.

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Double hoop earring. Slotless, gives an extra earring slot. Possibly allow two to be outfitted, one per ear.

Absolutely not.

You're trolling right? Because this cannot be serious.

It's a genuine recommendation, it's not that different from Runestone Fitting Base, which is slotless and allows a second Runestone slot.

Its a bit different than, say, +2 damage from runestones. 2 extra ear slots turns into Arcane Eacuff, Orbits, Icecraig, and, say, Charming Earcuff. Make it slotted and a neck item, then it would be about right.

As a slotted neck item, it would be pretty useless. The neck slot is worth more than the earring slot, especially with the Class Legendaries. It could be limited to outfitting just one of them.

I'm just tossing it out there for Jeff to consider and see if there's anything in the idea he wants to use, which is the point of the thread.

Neck slot is actually fairly open for my party, so I wouldn't call it useless. Of 10 players, only one has a class relic (ranger), though I may build the Cleric one depending on how it looks in the end.

I also really like the idea of a transmuted +1 level neck item that has some other perk - say +1 level and +2 all attributes. Again, targeting people who aren't going to make the relics.

I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

FWIW, I think adding an additional neck item is likely to be a bad idea, unless it takes at least 2 slots from elsewhere.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

Guilty - I've been pushing for rare and under increases in slots where the gap between Rare and UR is huge. Neck was particularly bad in this regard before the 2020 tokens - you went from a +1 Str uncommon, a -3 Poision damage uncommon, or a +2 AC rare, to a medallion of Valhalla at UR.

Edit - common is another area where I've pushed for some upgrades. New players get a lot of commons, and when I / my group was using commons in my builds they were all conditional and hard to remember as a new player (ex, +4 save vs web). I really wanted to be able to build viable, easy to use builds with a lot of commons for new people.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

FWIW, I think adding an additional neck item is likely to be a bad idea, unless it takes at least 2 slots from elsewhere.

Regarding my original suggestion of double-hoop earring, it's just following the trend of increasing slots via 1) creating new slots, 2) adding slot expanders like Arcane Earcuffs, 3) increasing the capacity of a slot (Runestone Fitting Base). It seems extremely likely to me that things will continue in that direction, and since plenty of new slots and slot expanders have been introduced, I was suggesting another token along the lines of the Runestone Fitting Base.

As far as the Earring / necklace comment goes, I was just saying that it's probably not going to be a tremendously popular token if it takes a very high value slot (neck) to give an equal number of a lower value slot (earring). It's more likely to be welcomed if it is a lower value slot converting to a higher value slot. Right now for the two earring slots you can get two charms and two ioun Stones. If you also had an earring that gave you a neck slot (and if we still only get two earring slots), someone would have to choose two of the three of two more charms, two more ioun stones, or one more neck (not counting of course all the other earrings available). I think that's a pretty good choice, there are plenty of people that would pick the two more charms and two more ioun stones over one more neck. That doesn't seem like a big power increase, it seems like introducing more choices with equally powerful existing options.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

FWIW, I think adding an additional neck item is likely to be a bad idea, unless it takes at least 2 slots from elsewhere.

Regarding my original suggestion of double-hoop earring, it's just following the trend of increasing slots via 1) creating new slots, 2) adding slot expanders like Arcane Earcuffs, 3) increasing the capacity of a slot (Runestone Fitting Base). It seems extremely likely to me that things will continue in that direction, and since plenty of new slots and slot expanders have been introduced, I was suggesting another token along the lines of the Runestone Fitting Base.

A third earring could be a nice slot for expansion, however in the slot math you never get something for nothing (I'm excluding Runestone Fitting bases and Hitchhiking Ghosts as they require consumables to operate).

These slots can be exchanged 1:1
Charm -> Back
Charm -> Ring
Neck -> Ring
Hands -> Ring

These slots can be exchanged 1:2
Wrists -> Charm
Wrists -> Ioun
Ear -> Ioun
Ear -> Charm

Theses slots can be exchanged 1:3
Neck -> Charm
Waist -> 2x Ioun, 1x Charm

If you examine all possible swaps/expansions, you will see there is never a situation where you can generate an additional new slot(s) A, B, ... without losing a slot of a different type Z.

I think it's wise to keep that restriction in place. That would mean no slot expander could be slotless, and an additional Ear slot would need to cost at least 2 of Ioun/Charm/Back/Ring, or 1 of a different slot.

I could see a neck or waist slot creating 1 or 2 ear slots through some grizzly taxidermy.

You could also do eyes, shirt, torso, pants, hands, or boots but those don't make much sense to me thematically.

Maybe Eyes: Devilear Sunglasses: +1 Ear?

Perhaps you could follow a Runstone Fitting Base/Hitchhiking Ghost model as well:

Fairie Ear Bearer:
Runestone fitting base version: UR Fairie gives +1 Ear slot for a Rare earcuff, but it steals it at the end of the adventure (turn in earcuff at start).
Hitchhiking Ghost Version: Rare Fairie gives +1 Ear rare Ear slot, but you have to hand in the Fairie at the beginning.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

FWIW, I think adding an additional neck item is likely to be a bad idea, unless it takes at least 2 slots from elsewhere.

Regarding my original suggestion of double-hoop earring, it's just following the trend of increasing slots via 1) creating new slots, 2) adding slot expanders like Arcane Earcuffs, 3) increasing the capacity of a slot (Runestone Fitting Base). It seems extremely likely to me that things will continue in that direction, and since plenty of new slots and slot expanders have been introduced, I was suggesting another token along the lines of the Runestone Fitting Base.

As far as the Earring / necklace comment goes, I was just saying that it's probably not going to be a tremendously popular token if it takes a very high value slot (neck) to give an equal number of a lower value slot (earring). It's more likely to be welcomed if it is a lower value slot converting to a higher value slot. Right now for the two earring slots you can get two charms and two ioun Stones. If you also had an earring that gave you a neck slot (and if we still only get two earring slots), someone would have to choose two of the three of two more charms, two more ioun stones, or one more neck (not counting of course all the other earrings available). I think that's a pretty good choice, there are plenty of people that would pick the two more charms and two more ioun stones over one more neck. That doesn't seem like a big power increase, it seems like introducing more choices with equally powerful existing options.

Your suggestion isn't "just following the trend" though. You appear to be overlooking an important aspect of the Runestone Fitting Bases and why they allow expansion of a slot so cheaply. The tokens you equip in the slots they generate are consumable. That's why it is seen as ok for the expansion to not cost some other slot. Because you're permanently giving up the item you equip in that extra slot.

The closest comparisons we currently have would be if you wanted to make a UR that allowed applying a second Totem Paint, or a second Hitchhiking Ghost. But those aren't guaranteed to ever get printed again, whereas we at least expect Runestones to continue to be printed each year. Or the Hitchhiking Ghosts themselves are a similar example, as it is the slot expander token itself that gets consumed.

Other than the RFB, existing slot expanders at UR generally cost a higher powered slot for a slightly lower powered slot or two (occasionally 3) slots much weaker.
1 Neck -> 1 Ring or 3 Charms
1 Hands -> 1 Ring
1 Earcuff -> 2 Ioun or 2 Charms
1 Wrist -> 2 Ioun or 2 Charms
1 Charm -> 1 Back or 1 Ring

And I'm sure we can have endless debates about the specific order of power levels and how maybe some of those are closer to the same level or not. But I think most agree they're pretty good tradeoffs. What you're asking for is to get a higher powered slot for the cost of a lower powered slot. Yes, there may be plenty of specific examples where someone may not choose to do that specific tradeoff, but that doesn't mean it isn't too powerful.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I could see the reverse, an earring that gave an additional neck slot.

I think Mike is definitely pushing to increase the power level of all characters, which I think endgame usually does, but at the lower rarities.

FWIW, I think adding an additional neck item is likely to be a bad idea, unless it takes at least 2 slots from elsewhere.

Regarding my original suggestion of double-hoop earring, it's just following the trend of increasing slots via 1) creating new slots, 2) adding slot expanders like Arcane Earcuffs, 3) increasing the capacity of a slot (Runestone Fitting Base). It seems extremely likely to me that things will continue in that direction, and since plenty of new slots and slot expanders have been introduced, I was suggesting another token along the lines of the Runestone Fitting Base.

A third earring could be a nice slot for expansion, however in the slot math you never get something for nothing (I'm excluding Runestone Fitting bases, as they require consumables to operate).

These slots can be exchanged 1:1
Charm -> Back
Charm -> Ring
Neck -> Ring
Hands -> Ring

These slots can be exchanged 1:2
Wrists -> Charm
Wrists -> Ioun
Ear -> Ioun
Ear -> Charm

Theses slots can be exchanged 1:3
Neck -> Charm
Waist -> 2x Ioun, 1x Charm

If you example all possible swaps/expansions, you will see there is never a situation where you can generate an additional new slot(s) A, B, ... slot without losing slot Z.

I think it's wise to keep that restriction in place. That would mean no slot expander could be slotless, and an additional Ear slot would need to cost at least 2 of Ioun/Charm/Back/Ring, or 1 of a different slot.

I could see a neck or waist slot creating 1 or 2 ear slots through some grizzly taxidermy.

You could also do eyes, shirt, torso, pants, hands, or boots but those don't make much sense to me thematically.

Maybe Eyes: Devilear Sunglasses: +1 Ear?

Perhaps you could follow a Runstone Fitting Base model as well:

Fairie Ear Bearer - +1 Ear slot for a Rare earcuff, you must turn in a rare potion at start to feed it.

Well, I'd just say Never say Never. Who knows if TD might go down this path someday? I won't be surprised.