TOPIC: 2021 Fighter Relic & Legendary Feedback

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

I think you attached to the wrong part of my comment. My point was whirlwind is situational.

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

I’m not overly attached to the Reflex save bonus though saves are always nice. Define deflect for me please.

I was calling it cleave from the start, but maybe there is an IP issue there.

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

I’m not overly attached to the Reflex save bonus though saves are always nice. Define deflect for me please.

I was calling it cleave from the start, but maybe there is an IP issue there.

Deflect could be any ability tied to the AC of the shield, since it seems Jeff wants that to be a defensive ability. In the current draft:

Deflect: gain reflex save equal to the AC of the shield equipped in melee offhand.

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

I’m not overly attached to the Reflex save bonus though saves are always nice. Define deflect for me please.

I was calling it cleave from the start, but maybe there is an IP issue there.

Deflect could be any ability tied to the AC of the shield, since it seems Jeff wants that to be a defensive ability. In the current draft:

Deflect: gain reflex save equal to the AC of the shield equipped in melee offhand.

That’s pretty close what is there now, but does push people towards 1 handed weapons. The 2 handers don't care so much about defense anyway? Just how hard they hit?

It’s a bit of a nerf, but I’m ok with it. But I don’t speak for people who like the 2 handers.

Search for keyword deflect on tokenDB

tokendb.com/?fwp_token_search=Deflect

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Over the last 4 years around 1/2 the dungeons, maybe like 5/8ths had one room with 2 or more targets. Often when 2 bad guys show up it's a boss room - time to shine!

One of the Rothfus dungeons had 2-3 rooms with multiple targets.

Welcome to the awesome "OMG you're so powerful imagine how much damage you'll do against all these multiple targets" discussion that was previously reserved for the Wizard elite

Matthew Hayward wrote: Over the last 4 years around 1/2 the dungeons, maybe like 5/8ths had one room with 2 or more targets. Often when 2 bad guys show up it's a boss room - time to shine!

One of the Rothfus dungeons had 2-3 rooms with multiple targets.

Welcome to the awesome "OMG you're so powerful imagine how much damage you'll do against all these multiple targets" discussion that was previously reserved for the Wizard elite

I was trying to list them out in my head as I walked the dogs
2016 ?
2017 ?
2018 frost trolls, hellkyrie (sp) (2/3 dungeons, 2/10? combats)
2019 I can’t remember any melee doubles (0/3 dungeons, 0/10?)
2020 tbd

I should be clear, I'm not questioning, just trying to think back

Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Lequinian wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Based on Mathew Hayward’s analysis, roughly half the dungeons in recent years have had at least one. A few have had more than one such room. There might well be changes in dungeon design in the future that would increase the frequency.

I think his analysis was on 2 targets, not necessarily 2 melee targets. Granted that there may be future dungeon design (goblin hordes, skeleton armies, Steam-Punk harpies with broken wings) that lends itself, but do any of the other legendary tokens have an ability that's usable only in sub-set of combat rooms? If it's a "minor bump" because everything else is over-powered, so be it. But I'm not sure it's worth the price bump from relic.

So probably better to be +3 str, 3 Dex, 4 con at relic and save the 7 str for the legendary? That way there is a bigger incentive to upgrade.

5/3/2 Relic, 7/3/4 Legendary?

That would fit the DnD weapon mastery scale a little better. Relic is high master, legendary is grand master.

The legendary may be tight for space if it can’t keyword off of the relic though.

Maybe keyword the X = to Shield AC as deflect?

Relic becomes
+5 str, +3 Dex, +2 con and Deflect

Legendary becomes:
+7 str, +3 Dex, +4 con, Deflect, whirlwind, and 19-20 crit?

Could save a few characters changing the name from whirlwind to cleave...

This is great, I also like changing whirlwind to cleave to save space on the token.

Dragon6483 wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Over the last 4 years around 1/2 the dungeons, maybe like 5/8ths had one room with 2 or more targets. Often when 2 bad guys show up it's a boss room - time to shine!

One of the Rothfus dungeons had 2-3 rooms with multiple targets.

Welcome to the awesome "OMG you're so powerful imagine how much damage you'll do against all these multiple targets" discussion that was previously reserved for the Wizard elite

I was trying to list them out in my head as I walked the dogs
2016 ?
2017 ?
2018 frost giants, hellkyrie (sp) (2/3 dungeons, 2/10? combats)
2019 I can’t remember any melee doubles (0/3 dungeons, 0/10?)
2020 tbd

Thank you.



I still think it's situational - good for an add-on, not so great as a headliner. (I'm still partial to power attack. )

I saw the wizard debate. I'm happy to have them be an AOE glass cannon. It just seems like a weird direction to send the fighters.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Lequinian wrote: I’m not a fan of whirlwind. How many rooms have 2 melee targets in a (normal) year?

Over the last 4 years around 1/2 the dungeons, maybe like 5/8ths had one room with 2 or more targets. Often when 2 bad guys show up it's a boss room - time to shine!

One of the Rothfus dungeons had 2-3 rooms with multiple targets.

Welcome to the awesome "OMG you're so powerful imagine how much damage you'll do against all these multiple targets" discussion that was previously reserved for the Wizard elite

Some rooms I can think of over the years. The Frost Trolls. The Helkyries. The Sea Lich with Rust monster,. The giant and whatever was controlling him in Giants Travail. The Drow and spiders/eggs in the Underdark. The Scrael room and the Scrael queen and her minions. Those stupid spiders with Psychic poison (No, poison resistance doesn’t help, it’s psychic. No psychic doesn’t help, it’s poison.). The stirges at Whos Yer Con. The Skelton generator coffin room. I’m sure there are more. And I’m guessing there will be more in the future.