TOPIC: The Skull of Cavadar: Part Deux

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What about a recipie that includes a semi lich skull, but also adds +7HP?

Are you suggesting two versions of the final product, one with added HP, one without?

Ideally not, just the lone recipie with the skull.

If needed, I suppose there could be one with and one without, though that seems fraught with possible exploitation. And makes things more fun for Trent, so.....

The arguments around the skull seem to boil down to to two things.

7 hp are more valuable than the Eldritch benefits. I disagree.

"We didn't know" that the skull would not be useful after the transmute.. Well some of us did. And now we have to buy another PYP to make the transmute? Not a fan. I'm ok with giving some kind of consideration to owners of the skull, but not at the expense of others.

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What about a recipie that includes a semi lich skull, but also adds +7HP?

Are you suggesting two versions of the final product, one with added HP, one without?

Ideally not, just the lone recipie with the skull.

If needed, I suppose there could be one with and one without, though that seems fraught with possible exploitation. And makes things more fun for Trent, so.....

The arguments around the skull seem to boil down to to two things.

7 hp are more valuable than the Eldritch benefits. I disagree.

"We didn't know" that the skull would not be useful after the transmute.. Well some of us did. And now we have to buy another PYP to make the transmute? Not a fan. I'm ok with giving some kind of consideration to owners of the skull, but not at the expense of others.

We didnt know is a BS argument. Things were actually pretty clearly stated.

I'm actually just trying to make the transmute better.

I concur, if it stays as it is, I'm very happy to have it. A 5th eldritch piece (possibly the 5 piece set bonus could be +5HP?) With +1 damage, +2 heals, and part of a level bump at slotless, imbuing psychic and granting access to all tiers, and subclasses are all great.

Its basically just an idea to consider. I think it would sell a lot more skulls, and requiring a skull makes sense in a skull recipie. If this were dentures, teeth, or grill of cavadar, I wouldn't be advocating for adding the skull.

I know people will say "but the Ro7P didn't require that......"
Recipies are getting more expensive. It's time to accept that fact.

The people likely to have all seven Teeth I would have expected to have known that the intent of the Semi was to not be important to the Eldritch, but maybe not.

The people likely to have all seven Teeth would be expected to transmute before the special event since that was sold as the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, but maybe not.

The people likely to have all seven Teeth could make an economic decision to rent out subclass use every year for more money or an economic decision to sell an extra set/Eldritch to the people who will make their own economic decision to boost the price of the Eldritch because the prospective buyer cares about the subclass benefit or the Eldritch benefit even if the prospective seller/lessor doesn't after the special event (can also sell the special event for whatever amount in addition to leasing the token), but maybe not.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

henry fung wrote: another suggestion to offset other Psychic enablers: have the Skull instead [or also] convert all "Imbues Psychic ability" abilities to "may use 1 additional different Psychic Power" (so Dark Disciple's Shirt would grant 2 additional Psychic Power uses under this effect)? it would make the Skulls (both semi-lich and Cavadar) more desirable to own in tandem, doesn't seem like it makes Cavadar excessively powerful, and revitalises old "imbues Psychic ability" tokens

+1

-1 one of the biggest draws the the transmute over the teeth (for me at least) would be not having to equip enablers anymore. If I'm reading the suggestion right this would require skull users to keep those old enablers on. IMO let those go to future loose tooth users (and I think there will still be a very good case for using an enabler and say the 5 easier to get loose teeth in years to come if you dont make the skull during the window)

I agree with that. If someone has a Semi-Lich and wants to move to the Eldritch Skull of Cavadar, there are likely numerous people now and in the future that have individual teeth but not the transmute that would like to obtain the Semi-Lich. I'd rather not try to incorporate any of the UR tokens into the recipe, I'd rather those end up with people that need them to access individual teeth. If I recall correctly that's a main reason that Jeff created the Semi-Lich skull, for people that had individual teeth but weren't going to be able to get the Eldritch Skull.

This suggestion has nothing to do with the transmute recipe and has impacts to tokens other than the Semi-Lich Skull.

OK, back to the original suggestion here, I'm not a fan of adding an additional power to the Semi-Lich. I think it has a power that is very useful and very clearly defined already. I agree it is of no use to anyone using a transmuted Cavadar Skull, and I think that's OK because there are other people without a Cavadar Skull that might like to buy or trade for it.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What about a recipie that includes a semi lich skull, but also adds +7HP?

Are you suggesting two versions of the final product, one with added HP, one without?

Ideally not, just the lone recipie with the skull.

If needed, I suppose there could be one with and one without, though that seems fraught with possible exploitation. And makes things more fun for Trent, so.....

The arguments around the skull seem to boil down to to two things.

7 hp are more valuable than the Eldritch benefits. I disagree.

"We didn't know" that the skull would not be useful after the transmute.. Well some of us did. And now we have to buy another PYP to make the transmute? Not a fan. I'm ok with giving some kind of consideration to owners of the skull, but not at the expense of others.

We didnt know is a BS argument. Things were actually pretty clearly stated.

They may have been clearly stated. But not everyone participates in the token design threads, and some people actively avoid them. Was it ever stated outside those threads?

The Semi-Lich Skull is just one example anyways (though likely the most egregious). People that have actually been using the imbuers along the way now find themselves with tokens that have lost some of their value if they do the transmute.

This is why I like Henry's suggestion of having the transmuted Skull convert the "Imbues Psychic ability" of other tokens to be an extra use. It doesn't change the recipe for anyone. It gives value to people that have the older URs (or even rares). And while it doesn't give the Semi-Lich Skull users 7 HP, it does potentially give them the ability to use a heal that may be worth more.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

henry fung wrote: another suggestion to offset other Psychic enablers: have the Skull instead [or also] convert all "Imbues Psychic ability" abilities to "may use 1 additional different Psychic Power" (so Dark Disciple's Shirt would grant 2 additional Psychic Power uses under this effect)? it would make the Skulls (both semi-lich and Cavadar) more desirable to own in tandem, doesn't seem like it makes Cavadar excessively powerful, and revitalises old "imbues Psychic ability" tokens

+1

-1 one of the biggest draws the the transmute over the teeth (for me at least) would be not having to equip enablers anymore. If I'm reading the suggestion right this would require skull users to keep those old enablers on. IMO let those go to future loose tooth users (and I think there will still be a very good case for using an enabler and say the 5 easier to get loose teeth in years to come if you dont make the skull during the window)

I agree with that. If someone has a Semi-Lich and wants to move to the Eldritch Skull of Cavadar, there are likely numerous people now and in the future that have individual teeth but not the transmute that would like to obtain the Semi-Lich. I'd rather not try to incorporate any of the UR tokens into the recipe, I'd rather those end up with people that need them to access individual teeth. If I recall correctly that's a main reason that Jeff created the Semi-Lich skull, for people that had individual teeth but weren't going to be able to get the Eldritch Skull.

This suggestion has nothing to do with the transmute recipe and has impacts to tokens other than the Semi-Lich Skull.

OK, back to the original suggestion here, I'm not a fan of adding an additional power to the Semi-Lich. I think it has a power that is very useful and very clearly defined already. I agree it is of no use to anyone using a transmuted Cavadar Skull, and I think that's OK because there are other people without a Cavadar Skull that might like to buy or trade for it.

The. Semi-Lich. Skull. Is. Just. One. Of. The. Impacted. Tokens.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

henry fung wrote: another suggestion to offset other Psychic enablers: have the Skull instead [or also] convert all "Imbues Psychic ability" abilities to "may use 1 additional different Psychic Power" (so Dark Disciple's Shirt would grant 2 additional Psychic Power uses under this effect)? it would make the Skulls (both semi-lich and Cavadar) more desirable to own in tandem, doesn't seem like it makes Cavadar excessively powerful, and revitalises old "imbues Psychic ability" tokens

+1

-1 one of the biggest draws the the transmute over the teeth (for me at least) would be not having to equip enablers anymore. If I'm reading the suggestion right this would require skull users to keep those old enablers on. IMO let those go to future loose tooth users (and I think there will still be a very good case for using an enabler and say the 5 easier to get loose teeth in years to come if you dont make the skull during the window)

I agree with that. If someone has a Semi-Lich and wants to move to the Eldritch Skull of Cavadar, there are likely numerous people now and in the future that have individual teeth but not the transmute that would like to obtain the Semi-Lich. I'd rather not try to incorporate any of the UR tokens into the recipe, I'd rather those end up with people that need them to access individual teeth. If I recall correctly that's a main reason that Jeff created the Semi-Lich skull, for people that had individual teeth but weren't going to be able to get the Eldritch Skull.

This suggestion has nothing to do with the transmute recipe and has impacts to tokens other than the Semi-Lich Skull.

OK, back to the original suggestion here, I'm not a fan of adding an additional power to the Semi-Lich. I think it has a power that is very useful and very clearly defined already. I agree it is of no use to anyone using a transmuted Cavadar Skull, and I think that's OK because there are other people without a Cavadar Skull that might like to buy or trade for it.

The. Semi-Lich. Skull. Is. Just. One. Of. The. Impacted. Tokens.

That. Is. O. K. There. Are. People. In. The. Secondary. Market. For. Those. Too.

I. Think. It. Would. Be. OP. For. Each. Of. Those. To. Grant. Additional. Psychic. Power. Uses.

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

henry fung wrote: another suggestion to offset other Psychic enablers: have the Skull instead [or also] convert all "Imbues Psychic ability" abilities to "may use 1 additional different Psychic Power" (so Dark Disciple's Shirt would grant 2 additional Psychic Power uses under this effect)? it would make the Skulls (both semi-lich and Cavadar) more desirable to own in tandem, doesn't seem like it makes Cavadar excessively powerful, and revitalises old "imbues Psychic ability" tokens

+1

-1 one of the biggest draws the the transmute over the teeth (for me at least) would be not having to equip enablers anymore. If I'm reading the suggestion right this would require skull users to keep those old enablers on. IMO let those go to future loose tooth users (and I think there will still be a very good case for using an enabler and say the 5 easier to get loose teeth in years to come if you dont make the skull during the window)

I agree with that. If someone has a Semi-Lich and wants to move to the Eldritch Skull of Cavadar, there are likely numerous people now and in the future that have individual teeth but not the transmute that would like to obtain the Semi-Lich. I'd rather not try to incorporate any of the UR tokens into the recipe, I'd rather those end up with people that need them to access individual teeth. If I recall correctly that's a main reason that Jeff created the Semi-Lich skull, for people that had individual teeth but weren't going to be able to get the Eldritch Skull.

This suggestion has nothing to do with the transmute recipe and has impacts to tokens other than the Semi-Lich Skull.

OK, back to the original suggestion here, I'm not a fan of adding an additional power to the Semi-Lich. I think it has a power that is very useful and very clearly defined already. I agree it is of no use to anyone using a transmuted Cavadar Skull, and I think that's OK because there are other people without a Cavadar Skull that might like to buy or trade for it.

The. Semi-Lich. Skull. Is. Just. One. Of. The. Impacted. Tokens.

That. Is. O. K. There. Are. People. In. The. Secondary. Market. For. Those. Too.

I. Think. It. Would. Be. OP. For. Each. Of. Those. To. Grant. Additional. Psychic. Power. Uses.

Why? That is exactly what they currently do. They take you from having 0 uses to 1.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

henry fung wrote: another suggestion to offset other Psychic enablers: have the Skull instead [or also] convert all "Imbues Psychic ability" abilities to "may use 1 additional different Psychic Power" (so Dark Disciple's Shirt would grant 2 additional Psychic Power uses under this effect)? it would make the Skulls (both semi-lich and Cavadar) more desirable to own in tandem, doesn't seem like it makes Cavadar excessively powerful, and revitalises old "imbues Psychic ability" tokens

+1

-1 one of the biggest draws the the transmute over the teeth (for me at least) would be not having to equip enablers anymore. If I'm reading the suggestion right this would require skull users to keep those old enablers on. IMO let those go to future loose tooth users (and I think there will still be a very good case for using an enabler and say the 5 easier to get loose teeth in years to come if you dont make the skull during the window)

I agree with that. If someone has a Semi-Lich and wants to move to the Eldritch Skull of Cavadar, there are likely numerous people now and in the future that have individual teeth but not the transmute that would like to obtain the Semi-Lich. I'd rather not try to incorporate any of the UR tokens into the recipe, I'd rather those end up with people that need them to access individual teeth. If I recall correctly that's a main reason that Jeff created the Semi-Lich skull, for people that had individual teeth but weren't going to be able to get the Eldritch Skull.

This suggestion has nothing to do with the transmute recipe and has impacts to tokens other than the Semi-Lich Skull.

OK, back to the original suggestion here, I'm not a fan of adding an additional power to the Semi-Lich. I think it has a power that is very useful and very clearly defined already. I agree it is of no use to anyone using a transmuted Cavadar Skull, and I think that's OK because there are other people without a Cavadar Skull that might like to buy or trade for it.

The. Semi-Lich. Skull. Is. Just. One. Of. The. Impacted. Tokens.

That. Is. O. K. There. Are. People. In. The. Secondary. Market. For. Those. Too.

I. Think. It. Would. Be. OP. For. Each. Of. Those. To. Grant. Additional. Psychic. Power. Uses.

Why? That is exactly what they currently do. They take you from having 0 uses to 1.

I think what they currently do is enable a single use of Psychic Power, not start stacking additional uses of Psychic Power. (except for Dark Disciples Shirt, which does enable a second use even with Cavadar Skull).

Fiddy wrote:
They may have been clearly stated. But not everyone participates in the token design threads, and some people actively avoid them. Was it ever stated outside those threads?

Yes, the tokendb.
tokendb.com/token/semi-lich-skull/
The user gains +1 to max HP for every uniquely named (numbered) Tooth of Cavadar token they have equipped.

Now you can argue that is not enough, but it was outside of the design as well. If someone acquired any token under the assumption that it does something that it does not whose responsibility is it know what the token does? The token itself says unique tooth. I would count that as another source outside token design. So maybe you weren't certain. The forums are a great source of answers if you ask.

That said if Jeff wanted to be nice to those with skull AND other UR psychic enablers owners I think there are 2 different ways to approach it.

Either give the old enablers something when equippedwith the skull (or the skull something when equipped with the enablers).
Or allow the old enablers to be used in a replacement alt recipe of some type. My suggest was in place of trade goods, but it was just a suggestion.

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What about a recipie that includes a semi lich skull, but also adds +7HP?

Are you suggesting two versions of the final product, one with added HP, one without?

Ideally not, just the lone recipie with the skull.

If needed, I suppose there could be one with and one without, though that seems fraught with possible exploitation. And makes things more fun for Trent, so.....

The arguments around the skull seem to boil down to to two things.

7 hp are more valuable than the Eldritch benefits. I disagree.

"We didn't know" that the skull would not be useful after the transmute.. Well some of us did. And now we have to buy another PYP to make the transmute? Not a fan. I'm ok with giving some kind of consideration to owners of the skull, but not at the expense of others.

We didnt know is a BS argument. Things were actually pretty clearly stated.

They may have been clearly stated. But not everyone participates in the token design threads, and some people actively avoid them. Was it ever stated outside those threads?

The Semi-Lich Skull is just one example anyways (though likely the most egregious). People that have actually been using the imbuers along the way now find themselves with tokens that have lost some of their value if they do the transmute.

This is why I like Henry's suggestion of having the transmuted Skull convert the "Imbues Psychic ability" of other tokens to be an extra use. It doesn't change the recipe for anyone. It gives value to people that have the older URs (or even rares). And while it doesn't give the Semi-Lich Skull users 7 HP, it does potentially give them the ability to use a heal that may be worth more.

Not doing your research is a reality we have to deal with but not an excuse. What about the people who followed along with the years of statements that the final skull would "very likely imbue psychic powers" and chose to skip UR enablers that would not be useful for their 7 year build plans. What if they would have made different buying choices knowing the early enablers would suddenly "get some love" at the 11th hour.

Also the current skulls wording is elegant and clean. Its doesn't have abbreviations, brackets, or links to websites. That is worth something too. If the skull gets complicated, Id almost rather it didn't say anything on the token.

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What about a recipie that includes a semi lich skull, but also adds +7HP?

Are you suggesting two versions of the final product, one with added HP, one without?

Ideally not, just the lone recipie with the skull.

If needed, I suppose there could be one with and one without, though that seems fraught with possible exploitation. And makes things more fun for Trent, so.....

The arguments around the skull seem to boil down to to two things.

7 hp are more valuable than the Eldritch benefits. I disagree.

"We didn't know" that the skull would not be useful after the transmute.. Well some of us did. And now we have to buy another PYP to make the transmute? Not a fan. I'm ok with giving some kind of consideration to owners of the skull, but not at the expense of others.

We didnt know is a BS argument. Things were actually pretty clearly stated.

They may have been clearly stated. But not everyone participates in the token design threads, and some people actively avoid them. Was it ever stated outside those threads?

The Semi-Lich Skull is just one example anyways (though likely the most egregious). People that have actually been using the imbuers along the way now find themselves with tokens that have lost some of their value if they do the transmute.

This is why I like Henry's suggestion of having the transmuted Skull convert the "Imbues Psychic ability" of other tokens to be an extra use. It doesn't change the recipe for anyone. It gives value to people that have the older URs (or even rares). And while it doesn't give the Semi-Lich Skull users 7 HP, it does potentially give them the ability to use a heal that may be worth more.

Not doing your research is a reality we have to deal with but not an excuse. What about the people who followed along with the years of statements that the final skull would "very likely imbue psychic powers" and chose to skip UR enablers that would not be useful for their 7 year build plans. What if they would have made different buying choices knowing the early enablers would suddenly "get some love" at the 11th hour.

To be clear, I don't have a horse in the Semi-Lich Skull aspect. I was simply pointing out that there was no large announcement about it. Buried in a thread that 90% of the players don't read is not the way to announce something. The TokenDB reference is a better source I admit.

My concern is more with the UR imbuers as a whole.

As to the "years of statements that the final skull would "very likely imbue psychic powers", what years of statements are you referring to? As recently as last year's token development, Jeff said he was only 99.9% sure the transmute would imbue psychic, indicating the possibility that it might not. I wasn't able to find earlier statements from Jeff either way (maybe someone better at searching can).