TOPIC: The Skull of Cavadar: Part Deux

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
That was in reference to the Relic previously giving 1:2 not the MEC, mistake in my wording.

Okay thank you, I didn't know if it had changed in the middle of the last Jeff post and I missed it.

Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

Overall damage potential per room stays the same, just determines if I add +10 to 2 spells or +20 to 1.

Previous iteration of the MEC I could spend 20HP to MEC 2 scorching ray and add 36 damage. That is purely a nerf compared to the previous version on an HP to damage conversion.

The only conversion on the old MEC that was lower HP to Damage was the level 0 spells that did not generally ever get cast.

Overall potential damage DID get a buff. Overall damage to HP conversion got a heavy nerf

Edit: the 1/room restriction was removed from the UR but it also removed the casting of that 1/room as a free action so that lowers room damage as it does not allow 2 spells that room

Dave wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

edwin wrote: Adding 7 hp increases the maximum for that character. It is like a battery having a higher capacity. You can recharage to that higher value and then discharge again.

If additional hps were reclassified as temporary where a character lost them first but they do not increase the maximum hit points for a charater than only one use of the extra capacity of 7 hp is possible. This would result in a number of other issues and I don't propose doing this.

Sorry what does this have to do with the discussion? Are you saying because they can be 'recharged' that you get to count them multiple times? If so you are missing that that energy (to continue your analogy) has to come for somewhere else. The energy of the higher capacity can only be used once. You can charge it up to the higher capacity again but it is not the same energy that was there before therefore cannot be counted as the same energy. Maybe you are saying something different, if so I apologize because I don't follow.

No apologies necessary. We're probably just talking apples and oranges. I'll let everyone get back to their discussion.

Dave, I understand what both of you are saying. You have a good point, if a Wizard has 57 HP instead of 50 (for instance), that Wizard could put 57 points if a MEC instead of 50, get resurrected back to full HP, and still have 57 HP to spend instead of 50.

I also get what Jedi is saying, that you basically spend down that extra seven once, and have to get it recharged back in order to spend it again.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

Overall damage potential per room stays the same, just determines if I add +10 to 2 spells or +20 to 1.

Previous iteration of the MEC I could spend 20HP to MEC 2 scorching ray and add 36 damage. That is purely a nerf compared to the previous version on an HP to damage conversion.

The only conversion on the old MEC that was lower HP to Damage was the level 0 spells that did not generally ever get cast.

Overall potential damage DID get a buff. Overall damage to HP conversion got a heavy nerf

Edit: the 1/room restriction was removed from the UR but it also removed the casting of that 1/room as a free action so that lowers room damage as it does not allow 2 spells that room

Removal of once per room is a huge power up for the MEC. Now, you can spend as much as you want, get healed up, and spend it again on another spell. When it was limited to once per room, the maximum you could spend on it in a turn is your HP. Now, you theoretically could spend your up to full HP on MEC every single damage spell, if you had a way to get healed up in-between.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

Overall damage potential per room stays the same, just determines if I add +10 to 2 spells or +20 to 1.

Previous iteration of the MEC I could spend 20HP to MEC 2 scorching ray and add 36 damage. That is purely a nerf compared to the previous version on an HP to damage conversion.

The only conversion on the old MEC that was lower HP to Damage was the level 0 spells that did not generally ever get cast.

Overall potential damage DID get a buff. Overall damage to HP conversion got a heavy nerf

Edit: the 1/room restriction was removed from the UR but it also removed the casting of that 1/room as a free action so that lowers room damage as it does not allow 2 spells that room

Removal of once per room is a huge power up for the MEC. Now, you can spend as much as you want, get healed up, and spend it again on another spell. When it was limited to once per room, the maximum you could spend on it in a turn is your HP. Now, you theoretically could spend your up to full HP on MEC every single damage spell, if you had a way to get healed up in-between.

Losing casting the spell as a free action IS a nerf.

Requiring another class to give up their free action and finite resource to identify a token change for another class as a buff is not a valid way to consider it a buff.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

Overall damage potential per room stays the same, just determines if I add +10 to 2 spells or +20 to 1.

Previous iteration of the MEC I could spend 20HP to MEC 2 scorching ray and add 36 damage. That is purely a nerf compared to the previous version on an HP to damage conversion.

The only conversion on the old MEC that was lower HP to Damage was the level 0 spells that did not generally ever get cast.

Overall potential damage DID get a buff. Overall damage to HP conversion got a heavy nerf

Edit: the 1/room restriction was removed from the UR but it also removed the casting of that 1/room as a free action so that lowers room damage as it does not allow 2 spells that room

Removal of once per room is a huge power up for the MEC. Now, you can spend as much as you want, get healed up, and spend it again on another spell. When it was limited to once per room, the maximum you could spend on it in a turn is your HP. Now, you theoretically could spend your up to full HP on MEC every single damage spell, if you had a way to get healed up in-between.

Losing casting the spell as a free action IS a nerf.

Requiring another class to give up their free action and finite resource to identify a token change for another class as a buff is not a valid way to consider it a buff.

I agree with you that losing the Free Action was a nerf. It's one I think was necessary, but I know others think differently.

I completely disagree about losing the once per room not being a buff though. Having the potential to spend on MEC up to your HP not just once but multiple times in a room is absolutely a power increase. There are plenty of ways to regain HP including consumables, and the Cleric can do it much more easily than ever before now.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
Yeah, unfortunately sometime around 3AM the MEC was updated to remove the 1/room restriction and remove it's ability to make the spell a free action.

The Relic had it's 1:2 channel removed and was upped from 3 Mage Powers to 4.

So both tokens got nerfed, the Relic got nerfed hard. But the only piece that matters to the Skull conversation is the Relic no longer gains 14 damage from the skull it gains +7 damage/game on the extra Max HP

Wouldn't the removal of the 1/room not be a nerf but a powerup?

Overall damage potential per room stays the same, just determines if I add +10 to 2 spells or +20 to 1.

Previous iteration of the MEC I could spend 20HP to MEC 2 scorching ray and add 36 damage. That is purely a nerf compared to the previous version on an HP to damage conversion.

The only conversion on the old MEC that was lower HP to Damage was the level 0 spells that did not generally ever get cast.

Overall potential damage DID get a buff. Overall damage to HP conversion got a heavy nerf

Edit: the 1/room restriction was removed from the UR but it also removed the casting of that 1/room as a free action so that lowers room damage as it does not allow 2 spells that room

Removal of once per room is a huge power up for the MEC. Now, you can spend as much as you want, get healed up, and spend it again on another spell. When it was limited to once per room, the maximum you could spend on it in a turn is your HP. Now, you theoretically could spend your up to full HP on MEC every single damage spell, if you had a way to get healed up in-between.

Losing casting the spell as a free action IS a nerf.

Requiring another class to give up their free action and finite resource to identify a token change for another class as a buff is not a valid way to consider it a buff.

I agree with you that losing the Free Action was a nerf. It's one I think was necessary, but I know others think differently.

I completely disagree about losing the once per room not being a buff though. Having the potential to spend on MEC up to your HP not just once but multiple times in a room is absolutely a power increase. There are plenty of ways to regain HP including consumables, and the Cleric can do it much more easily than ever before now.

I'm thinking the biggest thing here is that the powers were all probably supposed to be 1/room anyhow, but the damage made it far, far more powerful.

Who knows. Either way this conversation has nothing to do with the Skull of Cavadar. Probably should take it out of the thread

Skull of Cavadar discussion... wizard nerfing buffing radical changes improvements elsewhere... please?

yes the relevant point has been made semi-lich plus teeth may be better for the wizard due to MEC.

Lequinian wrote: Skull of Cavadar discussion... wizard nerfing buffing radical changes improvements elsewhere... please?

yes the relevant point has been made semi-lich plus teeth may be better for the wizard due to MEC.

Maybe being the key. Currently design is 7 more damage potential damage with the Semi-Lich Skull. If someone only would have the completed Cavadar skull then yes. If they have 1 other Eldritch item, then the +1 damage on each of the12 (Elf) spells and 13 spells plus the level bump which is another 6 and 5 HP (on the current cards) which is another 6 and 5 damage with the MEC. Already having 2 or more eldritch tokens only gives a +1 damage on the spells. So more overall damage than the Semi-Lich but also less health.

There is 1 scenario which it is more damage to not transmute (being that would be your only eldritch item). 3 scenarios where it is more damage but 7 less health (already owning 2 or more eldritch). 1 scenario where it is more damage and 1 or 2 less health (there is a subset of this where getting a level bump from another source now frees that up that slot(s) but I really didn't want to map them out).

jedibcg Banjo 815 Lover wrote:

Lequinian wrote: Skull of Cavadar discussion... wizard nerfing buffing radical changes improvements elsewhere... please?

yes the relevant point has been made semi-lich plus teeth may be better for the wizard due to MEC.

Maybe being the key. Currently design is 7 more damage potential damage with the Semi-Lich Skull. If someone only would have the completed Cavadar skull then yes. If they have 1 other Eldritch item, then the +1 damage on each of the12 (Elf) spells and 13 spells plus the level bump which is another 6 and 5 HP (on the current cards) which is another 6 and 5 damage with the MEC. Already having 2 or more eldritch tokens only gives a +1 damage on the spells. So more overall damage than the Semi-Lich but also less health.

There is 1 scenario which it is more damage to not transmute (being that would be your only eldritch item). 3 scenarios where it is more damage but 7 less health (already owning 2 or more eldritch). 1 scenario where it is more damage and 1 or 2 less health (there is a subset of this where getting a level bump from another source now frees that up that slot(s) but I really didn't want to map them out).

Also worth taking into account how many spells are likely to be cast in your run.

Currently on Nightmare I expect 1 round of combat on room 1, 1 or 2 on room 2 and 2 on room 3. That's 5 or 6 rounds to cast so if you have FA spells each room it'd be in favor of skull with no healing but teeth with healing.

Complications