TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Lol.

What about my idea Mike? Add both to one, remove druid from the other?

Wade, the Druid has very little in this set, I'd definitely prefer to stay on the one with the Cleric (nerfed as it is), and have Druid and Cleric added to Ring of Power. It seems pretty unbalanced for the Wizard to be getting bonus spells from both the Staff and Ring of Power without Druids and Clerics having access to either. If Druids and Clerics aren't allowed on it, I'd much rather it just be a +2 Staff of Power reprint than another bonus spell per turn for just the Wizard.

charm of power does not add a bonus spell per turn. It adds a Standard Action spell per room. SLIGHTLY different things.

*Ring of power. It was moved from Charm.

Ring of Power, my bad

Mike Steele wrote: Wade, the Druid has very little in this set, I'd definitely prefer to stay on the one with the Cleric (nerfed as it is), and have Druid and Cleric added to Ring of Power. It seems pretty unbalanced for the Wizard to be getting bonus spells from both the Staff and Ring of Power without Druids and Clerics having access to either. If Druids and Clerics aren't allowed on it, I'd much rather it just be a +2 Staff of Power reprint than another bonus spell per turn for just the Wizard.

Moving druid from one to the other leaves Druids on the same number of tokens.

Adding cleric to one helps a class I think most would say does need it.

Also, doesn't the druid card have more spells to begin with? Balancing the number of spells (with tokens) doesn't seem a bad thing to do, since they werent already balanced.

Bonus spell per turn definitely implies free action, whether you meant to or not. Particularly that it is once per room.

Bonus spell box per room would be a more accurate descriptor.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

There are a few specific situations that a Wizard can get over 100 damage in a single round but they are not by any means the average damage of 100+ per round for the Wizard. That's just incorrect.

I'll ask you the same thing. If there's proof of 100+ damage per round on the current Wizard BIS tokens please show it to me.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

Actually, I think Matthew missed something in his Druid healing analysis. Rare Druid necklace from this set gives an extra spell surge. I believe that puts the Druid back to the top of potential healing.

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

That would actually be a cool idea, probably include Bard on there as well for completeness.

Would it require making any changes that negatively affect Cleric to make that change?
If it hurts Cleric for Wizard to get access to the ring I would avoid adding them. If it doesn't it sounds like a nice build option to have something.

But I'd be perfectly fine with the Cleric UR being Cleric only.

Fiddy wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd ask again for the Druids and maybe Clerics be added to the Ring of Power. It's a basic Spellcasting token, and it should have all the spellcasters on it. It doesn't seem overpowered to use it in each room for a healing spell, but if that's the reason the Druid and Cleric aren't on it, it can specify non-healing spells only.

While we are at it put Wizards on the ring of quick charming. It's a core spellcaster ring.

Honestly just put the Cleric UR back to Cleric only like the Wizard UR is. Don't weaken the cleric designed UR just to give Druids another token

The Druid hate is strong with this one...

Oh I'm not hating on Druids with this comment. I promise you that.

Pushing the Druid on the ring has caused the CLERIC SPECIFIC ring to be weakened for Clerics by the addition of Druids to the ring. That's not acceptable. Remove Druids and restore the original design of the token.

I looked at all versions of that ring, saw how strong it would be for Wizards, knew that adding Wizard would require nerfing the item and did the honorable thing. I DIDN'T ask to be put on the ring, even knowing how massive of a DPS boost that ring would be in our hands.


So far this design cycle I've seen you ask

Put Druids on the Ring of Expertise
Put Druids on the Ring of Quick Blessings
Put Druids on the Mad Evoker's Charm

And i've seen you state multiple times that Druids are weaker healers than Clerics and weaker spellcasters than Wizards multiple times, been shown the math doesn't agree with you and had you continue to spout it.

This is the year for the Wizard Fighter and Cleric legendary tokens. Maybe just step away from trying to push the Druid onto the tokens and just let the Clerics and Wizards get their own class legendaries without having them nerfed to serve Druids.

Jeff has already said he will be giving all existing legendary class tokens an overview after this design phase is finished. Just wait for that and push for a positive change on your class legendary neck.

That's just not accurate. Matthew did an analysis of Druid and Cleric and Cleric was slightly ahead after Figurine of Power: Phoenix. And that's before the Class Relic/Legendary. I'd say raising from the dead at full health not to mention Divine Intervention puts the Cleric VERY comfortably ahead.

If there were any Druid vs. Wizard comparisons I missed them. I did see an analysis of Druid which put it at around 900 points over 10 rounds, while I also saw multiple analysis of the Wizard at well over 100 per turn. I don't see how that equals the Druid being able to out-damage the Wizard. And I'm not sure if that's adding in the additional damage the Wizard will be getting from tokens this year.

If you there were, as you say, multiple analysis showing the Druid being more powerful in damage spells than the Wizard, please link to them, as I'd like to see them. I will admit that there were entire pages of comments which I haven't read, so they may well be there and I didn't see them.

Actually, I think Matthew missed something in his Druid healing analysis. Rare Druid necklace from this set gives an extra spell surge. I believe that puts the Druid back to the top of potential healing.

I assume he is not including tokens from the 2021 set in his analysis as they aren't finalized yet.

I would avoid referencing them when doing data analysis

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

That would actually be a cool idea, probably include Bard on there as well for completeness.

Would it require making any changes that negatively affect Cleric to make that change?
If it hurts Cleric for Wizard to get access to the ring I would avoid adding them. If it doesn't it sounds like a nice build option to have something.

But I'd be perfectly fine with the Cleric UR being Cleric only.

The only downside I see is Clerics not being able to throw a Spiritual Hammer as a free action. Seems fine to me but the Clerics will have to weigh in.

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

That would actually be a cool idea, probably include Bard on there as well for completeness.

Would it require making any changes that negatively affect Cleric to make that change?
If it hurts Cleric for Wizard to get access to the ring I would avoid adding them. If it doesn't it sounds like a nice build option to have something.

But I'd be perfectly fine with the Cleric UR being Cleric only.

The only downside I see is Clerics not being able to throw a Spiritual Hammer as a free action. Seems fine to me but the Clerics will have to weigh in.

I for one wasn't really planning to throw a Spiritual Hammer. No clue on other Clerics though.

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

That would actually be a cool idea, probably include Bard on there as well for completeness.

Would it require making any changes that negatively affect Cleric to make that change?
If it hurts Cleric for Wizard to get access to the ring I would avoid adding them. If it doesn't it sounds like a nice build option to have something.

But I'd be perfectly fine with the Cleric UR being Cleric only.

The only downside I see is Clerics not being able to throw a Spiritual Hammer as a free action. Seems fine to me but the Clerics will have to weigh in.

As a cleric main, that is actually fine to do as a standard action. It uses a puck, so I can’t attack with my melee weapon and use spiritual hammer. I can cast bless as my FA and use my standard action for spiritual hammer. If I also wore the ring of expertise, I could choose one to not mark off my card too.

Fiddy wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Drop Druids from the Ring of Quick Prayer, Add Druids to the Ring of Expertise. Make the Ring of Expertise non-healing spells to prevent healing cheese in puzzle rooms.

Gives the same level of strength to Druid Wizard and Bard doing that.

Heck at that point put the Clerics on the Ring of Expertise as well, let's them use 1 free buff spell. Not likely they'd run both rings

I like this line of reasoning. Put all spell casting classes on the Ring of Expertise but limit it to non-healing spells.

What if we took it further and added all spell casters to the Ring of Quick Blessing but limited to non-damage spells? Wizard can't currently benefit from it, but next year's spell book might allow the wizard to use a utility spell like Stone to Flesh as a free action.

That would actually be a cool idea, probably include Bard on there as well for completeness.

Would it require making any changes that negatively affect Cleric to make that change?
If it hurts Cleric for Wizard to get access to the ring I would avoid adding them. If it doesn't it sounds like a nice build option to have something.

But I'd be perfectly fine with the Cleric UR being Cleric only.

The only downside I see is Clerics not being able to throw a Spiritual Hammer as a free action. Seems fine to me but the Clerics will have to weigh in.

I for one wasn't really planning to throw a Spiritual Hammer. No clue on other Clerics though.

This could be an issue if you Wanted to throw the spiritual hammer as a FA and turn undead. I think that is the only time this would really come up with a cleric.