TOPIC: 2021 Ultra Rare Almost Final!

Arnold wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

Don't look at the Wizards as the culprits on this one. We aren't the ones that have been campaigning to be added to your ring.

TBF, Druids didn't do any campaigning. Jeff added Druids to the ring in its very first iteration.

Then it was pointed out it would be broken, and Jeff toned it down.

It's not like the ring was a Cleric-only ring, and Druids campaigned to get added.

It's not like Druids campaigned to get added onto the token when it was a charm.

Bad form to be calling bullshit on Mike all day and then make false insinuations like this.

My bad, I guess I assumed when Mike had been calling for Druid to be added to the Mad Evoker's Charm he had also been calling to be added to the Clerics ring.

Guedoji wrote: Serious question, why do we argue over who does more damage?

Shouldn't we base this stuff on entertainment and fun? Why does it matter if someone can make some edge case build that out damages another class? It doesn't impact you if they are not in your group. Are people actually getting enjoyment out of being top DPS? Like what does that even do for the group other than kill things so quickly that others don't get get a shot?

I just don't understand the extreme level of number crunching, it's kinda killing the fun.

Might have something to do with the wizard legendary not ring strong enough to keep up with a UR that is released for druids late in the game. Might be that wizards had 8 FA spells in a previous iteration of legendary. Might be because some analytical types really love making spreadsheets. I couldn’t tell you honestly, nerds gonna spreadsheet, may as well use the data.

Where my nerds at?

There is no raise hand modal :raise hand: unless there is?

Anthony Barnstable wrote: I would have never considered turning a healing/buffing ring into a damage ring, but once the Druids suggested it and Jeff showed an image of Druids getting to use it as a damage ring, well, I as a Wizard then want in on the damage and won’t pretend otherwise, sorry.

SMH.

This is a 100% false accusation. I went back and checked.

Druids didn't lobby to get added. To the ring nor the charm.

I'm done. Let's move on and stop accusing one another.

macxdmg wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Serious question, why do we argue over who does more damage?

Shouldn't we base this stuff on entertainment and fun? Why does it matter if someone can make some edge case build that out damages another class? It doesn't impact you if they are not in your group. Are people actually getting enjoyment out of being top DPS? Like what does that even do for the group other than kill things so quickly that others don't get get a shot?

I just don't understand the extreme level of number crunching, it's kinda killing the fun.

Might have something to do with the wizard legendary not ring strong enough to keep up with a UR that is released for druids late in the game. Might be that wizards had 8 FA spells in a previous iteration of legendary. Might be because some analytical types really love making spreadsheets. I couldn’t tell you honestly, nerds gonna spreadsheet, may as well use the data.

Where my nerds at?

There is no raise hand modal :raise hand: unless there is?

Haha, ok. I spreadsheet all day so not an afternoon passion I guess.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

Focus is a mess. All focus items should be healing, spell damage, and polymorph damage.

I want to see fun items. Free action spells are fun. I own a ring of spell storing because they are fun. I want to see more free action spells. This new ring is not going to make Druids the top damage dealing class in the game.

I would also note that Druids have In the last few years (along with clerics) had their power reduced: LoDS change, the Polymoph shape limit, the Eldritch Set bonus redesign in regards to healing. I think it is OK to give them some nice things, and if the goal is to not ballon the total healing in the game it is not a terrible thing if a Druid uses some of the FA castings on damage.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Arnold wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

Don't look at the Wizards as the culprits on this one. We aren't the ones that have been campaigning to be added to your ring.

TBF, Druids didn't do any campaigning. Jeff added Druids to the ring in its very first iteration.

Then it was pointed out it would be broken, and Jeff toned it down.

It's not like the ring was a Cleric-only ring, and Druids campaigned to get added.

It's not like Druids campaigned to get added onto the token when it was a charm.

Bad form to be calling bullshit on Mike all day and then make false insinuations like this.

My bad, I guess I assumed when Mike had been calling for Druid to be added to the Mad Evoker's Charm he had also been calling to be added to the Clerics ring.

I would be okay with more classes having access to MEC if (and only if) MEC adds the effect that players with it equipped cannot cast heal spells or scrolls (or maybe cannot cast heal spells or scrolls on self). Open it to all classes at that point. I think that ensures it doesn’t lead to Druids and Wizards both fighting for the same healing from the Druid.

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

Focus is a mess. All focus items should be healing, spell damage, and polymorph damage.

I want to see fun items. Free action spells are fun. I own a ring of spell storing because they are fun. I want to see more free action spells. This new ring is not going to make Druids the top damage dealing class in the game.

I would also note that Druids have In the last few years (along with clerics) had their power reduced: LoDS change, the Polymoph shape limit, the Eldritch Set bonus redesign in regards to healing. I think it is OK to give them some nice things, and if the goal is to not ballon the total healing in the game it is not a terrible thing if a Druid uses some of the FA castings on damage.

What was the Polymorph shape limit?

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

Focus is a mess. All focus items should be healing, spell damage, and polymorph damage.

I want to see fun items. Free action spells are fun. I own a ring of spell storing because they are fun. I want to see more free action spells. This new ring is not going to make Druids the top damage dealing class in the game.

I would also note that Druids have In the last few years (along with clerics) had their power reduced: LoDS change, the Polymoph shape limit, the Eldritch Set bonus redesign in regards to healing. I think it is OK to give them some nice things, and if the goal is to not ballon the total healing in the game it is not a terrible thing if a Druid uses some of the FA castings on damage.

If Druids get the Ring Wizards should too. If it's ok to grant druids +40 spell damage per round it should be ok for Wizards to as well.

Personally I think adding 40 spell damage per turn for spellcasters is too strong for an UR token but if other players are OK with it I say go for it.

If that's not OK then it needs to remove the Druid.

Miathan wrote:

Flik wrote:

Endgame wrote: Can we please not highjack the cleric ring and then nerf it to put more classes on it?

Cast 1st level spells and restore power as FA works fine as printed for cleric and bard.

Cast 1st level non damage spells and restore power as FA works fine for cleric, Druid and bard.

I would like to consider wearing this with the cleric relic. If I have to track 5 uses so wizards and druids can cast damage spells with it, I’m much more likely to skip it.

In complete agreement. A likely skip except the transmute.

So you guys will skip because you can’t track 5 uses ? What do you do with your current spells ? But you will also be giving up FA restore power

I get most of the same power out Of the currently proposed relic. Instead of free action bless, I can free action prayer and cast bless as a standard action. I haven’t used restore power in several years, so I’m not going to burn a ring spot for that. With my ring situation, I don’t really need this one, but if it’s not a PITA to use I would get it. I would be happier to get added to the ring of expertise to not have to burn bless scrolls as often, and I would enjoy using spiritual hammer a couple times a game.

For a cleric that isn’t doing the relic, and doesn’t have a ring of greater focus, getting a FA bless (Maybe even a few) and a few In combat casts of cure light wounds is probably worth tracking the uses. The thing is, tracking uses is only necessary if using damage spells, so IMO don’t add the complexity if it’s not needed.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

Focus is a mess. All focus items should be healing, spell damage, and polymorph damage.

I want to see fun items. Free action spells are fun. I own a ring of spell storing because they are fun. I want to see more free action spells. This new ring is not going to make Druids the top damage dealing class in the game.

I would also note that Druids have In the last few years (along with clerics) had their power reduced: LoDS change, the Polymoph shape limit, the Eldritch Set bonus redesign in regards to healing. I think it is OK to give them some nice things, and if the goal is to not ballon the total healing in the game it is not a terrible thing if a Druid uses some of the FA castings on damage.

What was the Polymorph shape limit?

If you Polymorph in a room you can swap in and out with the Druid necklace but you are restricted to that form, you can't change forms

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Agree to Disagree.

If you want to run simulations on the interaction of every token currently on the list and every suggested change on every token to see what it does to Druid damage against other tokens go for it. I don't see it as a worthwhile exercise given how much change we have seen recently but you may find differently.

I do have to admit I am curious tho what you would consider a proper place for the Druid to be at the end of token development?

Do you feel Druids should have the highest spell damage?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest healing?
Do you feel Druids should have the highest melee damage?

How far above or below the next ranked class do you feel the damage/spelldamage/healing should realistically be?

I wasn't focusing on the Druid, I think it would be worthwhile to see how all the classes match up. Ideally that kind of analysis could happen at the start of the process and towards the end.

I don't think that the Druid should be the best healer, that is clearly going to be the Cleric. I don't think the Druid should do the most spell damage, that is clearly the Wizard. I think there's no way the Druid will be tops at Melee, that I think is clearly the Monk and Ranger currently.

I also don't think the Druid should be incorrectly claimed as the most overpowered class when it clearly isn't, and either be left off of tokens or have tokens they are on nerfed because there is a misconception that they are more powerful than they are.

You lack proof.

You make a lot of comments, you provide no proof to back it up.

Tokens Druid are on aren't nerfed because of a misconception of the class being overpowered. They are nerfed because a free action healing spell in combat is way different than a free action damage spell in combat. A free action party buff is different from a free action direct damage spell. The token is nerfed to allow Druids to have it without adding unintended actions that would never happen with the intended design class.

I think this might be a good time to remind folks that Druids did not complain that Wizards could use the UR that started the Druid Legendary transmute.

(To be fair I did not complain in part because I also occasionally play an Elf Wizard).

And I will remind you that the Druids gained polymorph damage on their Baton of Focus but Wizards were denied it.

Burning a spell to polymorph is not the same thing as gaining access to free action level 1 damage spells.

False equivalence fallacy

Focus is a mess. All focus items should be healing, spell damage, and polymorph damage.

I want to see fun items. Free action spells are fun. I own a ring of spell storing because they are fun. I want to see more free action spells. This new ring is not going to make Druids the top damage dealing class in the game.

I would also note that Druids have In the last few years (along with clerics) had their power reduced: LoDS change, the Polymoph shape limit, the Eldritch Set bonus redesign in regards to healing. I think it is OK to give them some nice things, and if the goal is to not ballon the total healing in the game it is not a terrible thing if a Druid uses some of the FA castings on damage.

What was the Polymorph shape limit?

After the Druid Legendary was created the rules were changed to only allow polymorph into one shape in a room. So if you polymorph into an air elemental and than learn the creature is vulnerable to fire you can’t change your shape to a fire elemental.

Speaking of changing Mike's Spectacles...after some private convo I have decided to re-do the items as shown below. I think it is a nice homage to Mike's tech work of late and create a "Weird Magic" artifact from both the V-series and S1.

Behold!