TOPIC: FINAL 2021 Ultra Rare Token Images!

Fiddy wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Ah, the Charm of Bonding didn’t make it, what a shame.

Agreed! Melee non-Monk/Rangers would be a great thing to bump.

Endgame wrote: Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Maybe hold-off on Earcuff of Obits for the above reason this year and bring back the Charm of Bonding to take its place?

The Charm of Bonding we saw was a combination of +4 Str and Bracers of Supreme Archery in a single slot, a single Charm slot. At the point where such a token got printed, we could just end any discussion about token balance, which would remove so many people's fun.

Charm of Bonding is definitely in need of some work before seeing the light of day. Not a good choice for a late addition.

If there was any desire to swap things out, I'd suggest bringing a reprint in.

Personal favorite would be to start reprinting the Cabal set Maybe start with the Gloves (you're welcome jpotter), then Charm in 2022, then Bracers in 2023.

The topic of this thread is "FINAL 2021 Ultra Rare Token Images!". Not sure where people are getting the idea that there is a desire to swap things out. Look for urgent game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues and let Jeff have a break. New ideas at the last minute is not good for anyone.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Regarding the Ring of Quick Blessing...

Maybe the text is poorly worded, so I want to explain what it means. I am seeing all kinds of crazy damage claims that I don't understand. The token reads:

May cast 1st-level
spells as Free
Actions (5/game)
& may Restore
Power as a
Free Action
(Cleric only)

This does not give the classes any more 1st-level spells...just let's them use their 1st-level spells as Free Actions. For the Druid that means up to 3 Free Action Freezing Orbs and for the Cleric 1 Spiritual Hammer. The (5/game) is there in case we have items that grant more 1st level spells...so there is a hard limit on the number of spells the Ring can quicken.

I haven't looked at the details, but I don't think it adds nearly as much as people are claiming. First, you are correct that unless there are lots of bonus spells which go unused, this doesn't add ANY damage to a pure caster. They were going to cast those spells anyway.

For a polymorph/melee build, these CAN be bonus damage, but not to the max spellcasting level. Meaning: if you equip for melee, you won't have the max spell bonus possible OR if you do have the max spell bonus you will have fewer melee bonuses. Either way, you can't just add full value with max spell bonus to a max melee build.

And, of course, nearly all complaints rely on using the charm of spell swapping. Since, even limited, allows 5 attack spells as free actions.

I really think the best way to fix it is to not allow spell swapping to work with level specific free action spells (or, other-phrased: you have to be able to free action the spell BEING swapped, THEN you can swap it down to lower level).

There's been builds shown that currently deal +37 damage via polymorph AND sit at +30 spell damage. Making this a +41 damage boost to the per round damage of a polymorph druid capable of mid 40-50 damage per hit.

Ok, but what do they give up to get that spell bonus? I know most will come from things that also boost polymorph, but not all? And if not all, then they would equip something else without this ring.

And I honestly don't know the answer to this, maybe it is less loss than I think. When you guys start talking about spell bonuses well over 20, I just glaze over, that is just so far above what I can do that it isn't relevant to me.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/3d9abf8a-8d38-49d5-adfa-932e0427c9c4

Not my design, Endgame created it.

+18 to hit +37 to poly damage
+30 spell damage
+22 healing

21/17/21 saves
AC 19
HP 58

So it appears the main loss is AC?

I don't mess with Druid class much, this is just what was posted yesterday during the "lively debates"

You can absolutely push that build in other directions easily, but I went for what seemed to be the best possible all around build. If you wanted AC, you could swap Ring of Spell Storing for Rolland's +6 ring of Protection.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: Regarding the Ring of Quick Blessing...

Maybe the text is poorly worded, so I want to explain what it means. I am seeing all kinds of crazy damage claims that I don't understand. The token reads:

May cast 1st-level
spells as Free
Actions (5/game)
& may Restore
Power as a
Free Action
(Cleric only)

This does not give the classes any more 1st-level spells...just let's them use their 1st-level spells as Free Actions. For the Druid that means up to 3 Free Action Freezing Orbs and for the Cleric 1 Spiritual Hammer. The (5/game) is there in case we have items that grant more 1st level spells...so there is a hard limit on the number of spells the Ring can quicken.

I haven't looked at the details, but I don't think it adds nearly as much as people are claiming. First, you are correct that unless there are lots of bonus spells which go unused, this doesn't add ANY damage to a pure caster. They were going to cast those spells anyway.

For a polymorph/melee build, these CAN be bonus damage, but not to the max spellcasting level. Meaning: if you equip for melee, you won't have the max spell bonus possible OR if you do have the max spell bonus you will have fewer melee bonuses. Either way, you can't just add full value with max spell bonus to a max melee build.

And, of course, nearly all complaints rely on using the charm of spell swapping. Since, even limited, allows 5 attack spells as free actions.

I really think the best way to fix it is to not allow spell swapping to work with level specific free action spells (or, other-phrased: you have to be able to free action the spell BEING swapped, THEN you can swap it down to lower level).

There's been builds shown that currently deal +37 damage via polymorph AND sit at +30 spell damage. Making this a +41 damage boost to the per round damage of a polymorph druid capable of mid 40-50 damage per hit.

Ok, but what do they give up to get that spell bonus? I know most will come from things that also boost polymorph, but not all? And if not all, then they would equip something else without this ring.

And I honestly don't know the answer to this, maybe it is less loss than I think. When you guys start talking about spell bonuses well over 20, I just glaze over, that is just so far above what I can do that it isn't relevant to me.

tdcharactercreator.com/#/character/edit/3d9abf8a-8d38-49d5-adfa-932e0427c9c4

Not my design, Endgame created it.

+18 to hit +37 to poly damage
+30 spell damage
+22 healing

21/17/21 saves
AC 19
HP 58

So it appears the main loss is AC?

I don't mess with Druid class much, this is just what was posted yesterday during the "lively debates"

I like this Dr. Uld build a lot, but it is missing LoDS and it does not have any room for the Quick Blessing ring to be added (so it is not a good baseline for the UR discussion). If you are going for balance you are planning to need to heal and the lack of LoDS is an omission that needs to be fixed.

This build would have trouble hitting some of the monsters on a Patron run, but I don't think Patron is the correct type of run to use for balance discussions.

Greg wrote:

Iross wrote: On a lighter note....

Who feels like doing a theme run where every player equips Psyferre's Spectacles and Figurines of Power: Reaver and Horror to nuke the last monster for 360 damage before the first round of combat starts?

+1
Already trying to outfit my crew with as many of these as possible

This is a good example of why "free" actions are dangerous. Using an item of this type should be a "swift" action, with only one "swift" action per round, ala D&A. 3.X. The more stackable, damaging free actions there are, the more likely it is we see runs where the monster never gets a turn.

Daniel White wrote:

Greg wrote:

Iross wrote: On a lighter note....

Who feels like doing a theme run where every player equips Psyferre's Spectacles and Figurines of Power: Reaver and Horror to nuke the last monster for 360 damage before the first round of combat starts?

+1
Already trying to outfit my crew with as many of these as possible

This is a good example of why "free" actions are dangerous. Using an item of this type should be a "swift" action, with only one "swift" action per round, ala D&A. 3.X. The more stackable, damaging free actions there are, the more likely it is we see runs where the monster never gets a turn.

You are limited to one free action on your turn in TD. You can't stack multiple free actions on a turn.

Figurines however don't take Free Actions to activate, they are instant.

Guedoji wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Ah, the Charm of Bonding didn’t make it, what a shame.

Agreed! Melee non-Monk/Rangers would be a great thing to bump.

Endgame wrote: Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Maybe hold-off on Earcuff of Obits for the above reason this year and bring back the Charm of Bonding to take its place?

The Charm of Bonding we saw was a combination of +4 Str and Bracers of Supreme Archery in a single slot, a single Charm slot. At the point where such a token got printed, we could just end any discussion about token balance, which would remove so many people's fun.

Charm of Bonding is definitely in need of some work before seeing the light of day. Not a good choice for a late addition.

If there was any desire to swap things out, I'd suggest bringing a reprint in.

Personal favorite would be to start reprinting the Cabal set Maybe start with the Gloves (you're welcome jpotter), then Charm in 2022, then Bracers in 2023.

The topic of this thread is "FINAL 2021 Ultra Rare Token Images!". Not sure where people are getting the idea that there is a desire to swap things out. Look for urgent game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues and let Jeff have a break. New ideas at the last minute is not good for anyone.

Let's take a step back, friend.

First, look at Jeff's first post again. You may be confusing it with his post from another thread. Nowhere does it say, look for, "...game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues..." at this point.

Second, Charm of Bonding was in the iteration right before this one which makes it fair game for discussion.

Third, not taking into account Endgame's comment about having no slot expanders for 5 years is short sighted. While the stats may need to be adjusted per other's comments to +1 to hit and +1 dmg and possibly be moved to the Ioun slot, unlike many others, this token design is not brain surgery. It's a simple booster for single token sliding Fighting-types and is a great first UR for new players and nice little boost seasoned players will want.

Endgame wrote: Axe of the Dwarvish Kings:
Is this a magical weapon in the hands of a non dwarf? I assume it's magic for a dwarf due to the +2 hit.

Nightshade's Throwing Dagger
This is better than the short sword in that it can be used at range. It has a slight damage reduction, but 2x 6s on the dial for a larger range of assassination, which will come up more with new people allowed to use the sub classes.

Maybe this should be a d4 dial if you intend to ever reprint the short sword, or at least only have 1 6? If there will never be a reprint of the short sword, then maybe it doesn't matter.

Any decision on FoB Compatible?


Ring of Quick Prayer
Change to non damage spells, add bard and Wizard (Wizard may get something cool to do with this with the spell book). Let the Cleric that doesn't build the relic come up with some awesome action economy. Don't break it to allow it to do a limited number of damage spells.


Ring of Expertise
Move this to non healing spells, and add Cleric and Druid to it. The Cleric could cast Spiritual Hammer or Bless once / room.

Ring of Expertise mixed with Ring of Quick Prayer adds a lot of options to a new Cleric, without increasing total healing or adding something that isn't already available in some other combination (ex, bless every room with Shield of the Scholar + bless scrolls)


Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Lucky Cloak
3 piece set bonus?


Pants of Focus
Maybe this should have a different name, if you ever intend on putting in 1 point focus pants in rare? Pants of Improved Focus? Pants of Narrowed Focus?

Cranston's hat
+3 damage is too much in addition to adding an eye slot - this very easily ends up as +6 dex, 100% vs incorp, and +3 ranged damage. I liked +2 ranged hit better but it could be +1 ranged hit, or maybe +1 ranged hit and damage, and still be very, very good.

+1 all this.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Ah, the Charm of Bonding didn’t make it, what a shame.

Agreed! Melee non-Monk/Rangers would be a great thing to bump.

Endgame wrote: Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Maybe hold-off on Earcuff of Obits for the above reason this year and bring back the Charm of Bonding to take its place?

The Charm of Bonding we saw was a combination of +4 Str and Bracers of Supreme Archery in a single slot, a single Charm slot. At the point where such a token got printed, we could just end any discussion about token balance, which would remove so many people's fun.

Charm of Bonding is definitely in need of some work before seeing the light of day. Not a good choice for a late addition.

If there was any desire to swap things out, I'd suggest bringing a reprint in.

Personal favorite would be to start reprinting the Cabal set Maybe start with the Gloves (you're welcome jpotter), then Charm in 2022, then Bracers in 2023.

The topic of this thread is "FINAL 2021 Ultra Rare Token Images!". Not sure where people are getting the idea that there is a desire to swap things out. Look for urgent game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues and let Jeff have a break. New ideas at the last minute is not good for anyone.

Let's take a step back, friend.

First, look at Jeff's first post again. You may be confusing it with his post from another thread. Nowhere does it say, look for, "...game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues..." at this point.

Second, Charm of Bonding was in the iteration right before this one which makes it fair game for discussion.

Third, not taking into account Endgame's comment about having no slot expanders for 5 years is short sighted. While the stats may need to be adjusted per other's comments to +1 to hit and +1 dmg and possibly be moved to the Ioun slot, unlike many others, this token design is not brain surgery. It's a simple booster for single token sliding Fighting-types and is a great first UR for new players and nice little boost seasoned players will want.

Also - we've had stuff like FINAL, FINAL, REALLY THIS TIME FINAL images in the past.

I realize the answer to this might be "We don't do things that way". And this is is unrelated to anything with the major ongoing debates.

Should the Nightshade's dagger have some sort of tokendb.com link in a similar spot to the transmute, set, and multi-year links?

Nightshade's has a lot of cool effects that aren't listed anywhere on the token itself. How is anyone who doesn't already know about those effects learn about them unless someone else tells them?

Marc D wrote: I realize the answer to this might be "We don't do things that way". And this is is unrelated to anything with the major ongoing debates.

Should the Nightshade's dagger have some sort of tokendb.com link in a similar spot to the transmute, set, and multi-year links?

Nightshade's has a lot of cool effects that aren't listed anywhere on the token itself. How is anyone who doesn't already know about those effects learn about them unless someone else tells them?

This has been a problem for me in the past. I do think this would be helpful for tokens with non printed effects.

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Guedoji wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Ian Lee wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

PalaDan wrote: Ah, the Charm of Bonding didn’t make it, what a shame.

Agreed! Melee non-Monk/Rangers would be a great thing to bump.

Endgame wrote: Earcuff of Orbits
I still think this can wait a year - IS can be expanded by 4(!) right now with in print tokens. Reprinting orbits now is almost certainly going to mean a 5 year stretch with 0 IS expanders.

Maybe hold-off on Earcuff of Obits for the above reason this year and bring back the Charm of Bonding to take its place?

The Charm of Bonding we saw was a combination of +4 Str and Bracers of Supreme Archery in a single slot, a single Charm slot. At the point where such a token got printed, we could just end any discussion about token balance, which would remove so many people's fun.

Charm of Bonding is definitely in need of some work before seeing the light of day. Not a good choice for a late addition.

If there was any desire to swap things out, I'd suggest bringing a reprint in.

Personal favorite would be to start reprinting the Cabal set Maybe start with the Gloves (you're welcome jpotter), then Charm in 2022, then Bracers in 2023.

The topic of this thread is "FINAL 2021 Ultra Rare Token Images!". Not sure where people are getting the idea that there is a desire to swap things out. Look for urgent game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues and let Jeff have a break. New ideas at the last minute is not good for anyone.

Let's take a step back, friend.

First, look at Jeff's first post again. You may be confusing it with his post from another thread. Nowhere does it say, look for, "...game breaking, grammar and misspelling issues..." at this point.

Second, Charm of Bonding was in the iteration right before this one which makes it fair game for discussion.

Third, not taking into account Endgame's comment about having no slot expanders for 5 years is short sighted. While the stats may need to be adjusted per other's comments to +1 to hit and +1 dmg and possibly be moved to the Ioun slot, unlike many others, this token design is not brain surgery. It's a simple booster for single token sliding Fighting-types and is a great first UR for new players and nice little boost seasoned players will want.

No sir, it says final. I'm putting them all into my "must buy" spreadsheet. You wouldn't want to force me to remove something from the spreadsheet now would you?!

Guedoji wrote:
☀  † ~"We're saved, hurray!"
  ____ / ⟎ \
\(o.o)/ ↢ ↢ €(^-^)†    ⩋◠⩋ ¦_⨅_¦ _ [_⩎_] ⩋⩋◠◠⩋
"rawr" sneak, sneak, sneak, pew... pew.. stabby, stab!

Rogues just want to have fun.
It's dangerous to go alone. Take this ASCII sword. o()xxxx[{::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Has anyone else been entertained during the design process by Guedoji's slowly but steadily evolving signature?