TOPIC: Final MEC, Mage Medallion and Arch-Mage Medallion

Mike Steele wrote: It actually seems like the new MEC isn't that different from the old MEC. The old MEC probably just didn't support the Character card changes. With current cards, the old MEC did an additional damage up to 20 for 10 HP, which is where the Relic/Legendary are now. If the MEC weren't modified, and the spell damage on the cards doubled, all of the sudden the MEC could do 40 bonus damage for the 10 HP.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the new MEC ability is even better than the old MEC, not worse. It's not nerfed, it's kind of super-charged. That is, if the "up to 14 HP" part is reusable and not once per room. If it's reusable, it can be on every spell, even multiple spells per turn. It also can do up to 14 bonus damage on each spell (28 for Relic/Legendary), where the old MEC only doubled the base + SK of the original spell, which on the old cards maxed out at 20 and could have been a lot lower. Plus, of course, once per combat, you can sacrifice unlimited HP for damage, and get it as free action.

Is that how everyone else reads this? Did the Wizards get a power boost and not a nerfing? If so, I'm not complaining if Jeff thinks that's necessary to get the Wizards to the power level he wants them at, I'm just making an observation.

The way I am currently reading it:
MEC - Mage Power 1/room = Spend X hp for X dmg and if X >= 15, this spell is FA

Relic - can do a Mage Power 1/round, each Mage Power 1/room =
1: MEC but X hp -> 2X damage, if X >= 15 HP spell is FA
2: Spend 15 HP -> FA your SA spell has SR 50%, no bonus damage
3: Spend 15 HP -> FA your slide spell crits on 18-20

Arch Mage Powers
4: Spend 15 HP -> change damage type
5: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> cast spell without marking it off card
6: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> add this spell’s damage to another character’s physical attack

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

The change to the Eldritch set bonus along with the change to LoDS is not too dissimilar to what you are describing with the HP boosting items. I know I purchased an Eldritch item on the secondary market for the set bonus (+10 to healing) only to have it changed and I am sure I am not the only one. I would recommend only making this level of radical change if there is a very compelling game reason.

There was a compelling game reason from Jeff that MEC had to fundamentally change. At least 2 Wizards have expressed very compelling social reasons to change either MEC or a MEC-based relic/legendary (and they have been mostly shouted down with the idea “political correctness is bad”).

Mike Steele wrote: It actually seems like the new MEC isn't that different from the old MEC. The old MEC probably just didn't support the Character card changes. With current cards, the old MEC did an additional damage up to 20 for 10 HP, which is where the Relic/Legendary are now. If the MEC weren't modified, and the spell damage on the cards doubled, all of the sudden the MEC could do 40 bonus damage for the 10 HP.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the new MEC ability is even better than the old MEC, not worse. It's not nerfed, it's kind of super-charged. That is, if the "up to 14 HP" part is reusable and not once per room. If it's reusable, it can be on every spell, even multiple spells per turn. It also can do up to 14 bonus damage on each spell (28 for Relic/Legendary), where the old MEC only doubled the base + SK of the original spell, which on the old cards maxed out at 20 and could have been a lot lower. Plus, of course, once per combat, you can sacrifice unlimited HP for damage, and get it as free action.

Is that how everyone else reads this? Did the Wizards get a power boost and not a nerfing? If so, I'm not complaining if Jeff thinks that's necessary to get the Wizards to the power level he wants them at, I'm just making an observation.

My current understanding differs from yours a bit, but Jeff mentioned he is going to draft a post with more detail so we may have more information later today. Until then, here is my attempt at clarifying my understanding of the MEC:

When casting a spell you may elect to use a MEC Mage Power to channel any number of HP into the spell. The spell deals 1 additional damage per HP channeled. If 15 or more HP are channeled in a single activation the spell is cast as a free action. Each unique Mage Power may only be used once per room.

If you used the old MEC every round I believe this is a potential upgrade. The smaller spells which have more slots can now be modified more regularly and instead of getting a "6 dmg for 10 HP" boost it would always be "20 dmg for 10 HP". That is certainly an upside if you were going to use the HP anyways. However, if I was using an old MEC I would be saving it for my 2nd & 3rd level spells so I'd only use it 3-4 times per game. In those situations the damage boost from the new MEC would be about equal for the HP cost, but it used to come from an UR Charm instead of a Relic+ Neck token. The other drawback is that if the new MEC's channeling ability is once per room I lose flexibility deciding when to power something up and how far to take it. I have to make a quick assessment and be prepared to manage the outcomes.

Here is a possible starting point for something that doesn't explicitly use HP as a resource but still encourages having a lot of it (if desired).

*Important Note* the numbers below are off the cuff and will probably need to be tweaked by those who are good at such things.

Wizard card change includes the following:
Mage Power: As a free action use a mage power to augment the next spell cast. Each available Mage Power may be used 1 / room. 3 boxes.
Mage Power (Empower Spell): Adds 10 points of damage to spell.

Mad Evokers Charm:
Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Can use Mage Power (Evokers Wrath): Adds 20 points of damage to spell but monster gets a free attack against caster next round (this attack cannot be avoided or negated in any way).

Relic:
As MEC. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Legendary:
As Relic. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Jamie Campbell wrote: insanity ... social crap ... someone individual or two has a background of issues

Not cool. Disagree with token designs all you like, but please do it respectfully; attacking other people is uncalled for. Even if you think they attacked you first (note: general statement that may or may not apply in this one case).

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It actually seems like the new MEC isn't that different from the old MEC. The old MEC probably just didn't support the Character card changes. With current cards, the old MEC did an additional damage up to 20 for 10 HP, which is where the Relic/Legendary are now. If the MEC weren't modified, and the spell damage on the cards doubled, all of the sudden the MEC could do 40 bonus damage for the 10 HP.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the new MEC ability is even better than the old MEC, not worse. It's not nerfed, it's kind of super-charged. That is, if the "up to 14 HP" part is reusable and not once per room. If it's reusable, it can be on every spell, even multiple spells per turn. It also can do up to 14 bonus damage on each spell (28 for Relic/Legendary), where the old MEC only doubled the base + SK of the original spell, which on the old cards maxed out at 20 and could have been a lot lower. Plus, of course, once per combat, you can sacrifice unlimited HP for damage, and get it as free action.

Is that how everyone else reads this? Did the Wizards get a power boost and not a nerfing? If so, I'm not complaining if Jeff thinks that's necessary to get the Wizards to the power level he wants them at, I'm just making an observation.

The way I am currently reading it:
MEC - Mage Power 1/room = Spend X hp for X dmg and if X >= 15, this spell is FA

Relic - can do a Mage Power 1/round, each Mage Power 1/room =
1: MEC but X hp -> 2X damage, if X >= 15 HP spell is FA
2: Spend 15 HP -> FA your SA spell has SR 50%, no bonus damage
3: Spend 15 HP -> FA your slide spell crits on 18-20

Arch Mage Powers
4: Spend 15 HP -> change damage type
5: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> cast spell without marking it off card
6: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> add this spell’s damage to another character’s physical attack

That's how I read it at first, and how I actually hope it is. The alternate reading I think is:
MEC: Spend up to 14 points of HP for an equal amount of bonus spell damage, can be done for every spell.
MEC - Mage Power FA 1/room = Spend 15+ hp for an equal amount of bonus spell damage and this spell is FA

Relic - can do a Mage Power 1/round, each Mage Power 1/room =
MEC: Spend up to 14 points of HP for 2x amount of bonus spell damage, can be done for every spell.
1: MEC - Mage Power FA 1/room = Spend 15+ hp for an 2x amount of bonus spell damage and this spell is FA
2: Spend 15 HP -> FA your SA spell has SR 50%, no bonus damage
3: Spend 15 HP -> FA your slide spell crits on 18-20

Arch Mage Powers
MEC: Spend up to 14 points of HP for 2x amount of bonus spell damage, can be done for every spell.
1: MEC - Mage Power FA 1/room = Spend 15+ hp for 2x amount of bonus spell damage and this spell is FA
2: Spend 15 HP -> FA your SA spell has SR 50%, no bonus damage
3: Spend 15 HP -> FA your slide spell crits on 18-20
4: Spend 15 HP -> change damage type
5: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> cast spell without marking it off card
6: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> add this spell’s damage to another character’s physical attack

David Zych wrote:

Jamie Campbell wrote: insanity ... social crap ... someone individual or two has a background of issues

Not cool. Disagree with token designs all you like, but please do it respectfully; attacking other people is uncalled for. Even if you think they attacked you first (note: general statement that may or may not apply in this one case).

All threads removed. Good luck

Adding an additional pool - mana - to be able to draw from doesn’t break anything for me. It already seems like I’ve got a lot to keep track of with all my spells, FA, modifiers, etc.

Sacrifice spells to add to the pool, if I want I can do the same thing for HP. If it’s just another slider on the side with a paper clip. Then done. For those that want to sacrifice HP - we’ve taken the Blood Mage route. Those that sacrifice spells - it’s because you’ve focused your Arcane Ability and have learned to draw power from the world. You have to decide which you’re gonna be at the start of the adventure, you can’t switch mid-run. And then just do something where those Wizards that when the spell-sacrificing route can channel healing into their mana pool instead.

Doesn’t seem to invalidate older builds, opens this up for others, and tbh it’s no more work than I’m already doing to keep track of my wizard card.

BrainScan wrote: Here is a possible starting point for something that doesn't explicitly use HP as a resource but still encourages having a lot of it (if desired).

*Important Note* the numbers below are off the cuff and will probably need to be tweaked by those who are good at such things.

Wizard card change includes the following:
Mage Power: As a free action use a mage power to augment the next spell cast. Each available Mage Power may be used 1 / room. 3 boxes.
Mage Power (Empower Spell): Adds 10 points of damage to spell.

Mad Evokers Charm:
Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Can use Mage Power (Evokers Wrath): Adds 20 points of damage to spell but monster gets a free attack against caster next round (this attack cannot be avoided or negated in any way).

Relic:
As MEC. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

Legendary:
As Relic. Allows 1 additional use of Mage Power. Adds two new Mage Powers.

This is easily one of my favorite ideas of MEC! It feels like a Gandalf vs Balrog epic!

Endgame wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

How do you feel about adding an alternative? Lose X HP OR mark off a Y level spell? Gives an option for those who don’t want to use HP for some reason , but doesn’t invalidate existing HP builds

I'm fine with that. It was actually suggested earlier in the thread and I supported an option of 5hp per spell level sacrificed.

BUT I don't see it making it into the tokens that literally have to be finalized TODAY and even attempting to do so may have massive unexpected consequences as we have seen several times in token design over the years so I say leave that to be an errata or a new Mage Power

OrionW wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

BrainScan wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

BrainScan wrote: With the wizard cards being redone, I'm sure there are numerous cool ways for a new resource to be added to the cards to get away from HP as a resource.

The problem with that is some wizards seem to be really attached to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if it goes away.

Conversely, some wizards are really adverse to the concept of HP as a resource and will be mad if the whole identity of the wizard seems like it is being shifted to require it.

Personally, I don't have any problem with HP as a resource but I am not attached to it. I would be very interested in some creative alternatives.

If the HP as a resource is limited to these Wizard Class tokens, it won't even be a factor in the vast majority of Wizard players. Hopefully the Class Card revision doesn't introduce that mechanic on the base card spells, at least for Level 4 players.

Adding some additional boxes to the Wizard cards (called "Mana", "Mage Power", "Augments", whatever) could have some default effect for the wizards that this token line could expand on or use as a resource. It wouldn't be that much different to the paladin having Lay On Hands boxes, etc. It could get away from having an entire line of tokens (which some people consider class-defining) based around HP as a resource. Granted, anything at this point will probably make someone mad...

Changing an existing, token build defining design six years after it was released is going to piss off a LOT of people. I'd expect a LOT more than the number of people who care adamantly in the other direction.

A moderate number of Wizards seem not to care one direction of the other. But a Wizard who has built around the Mad Evoker's Charm has purchased specific tokens to boost HP for MULTIPLE years in order to tailor to the playstyle of the token. Changing the playstyle of the token would invalidate likely over a thousand dollars in token acquisition.

Please stop trying to decimate MEC players by breaking the token design

I am simply trying to brainstorm some options. I personally use the Mad Evoker's Charm so my build is also at stake here. I also have a Lenses of Divine Sight and am familiar with the fallout from a major token redesign.

I understand. And I keep a pair of LoDs on hand for any healers who don't own them. They are definitely best in slot for healers IMO.

Yes the change to LoDS sucked but at least it's change didn't fundamentally alter the stat priority for tokens for the class. Removing the HP to damage piece from Mad Evoker would take HP/Con from #2 or #3 on priority to #6 or #7 and shift the best tokens for that build in a MASSIVE way. It wouldn't just affect 1 token it would require replacing probably 7-8 UR+ tokens. That's a massive change and a massive expense to those players, especially with the 7 tokens they have to replace probably dropping in half in cost due to no longer having a class design that has them as a core desire.


I absolutely support having other options of payments added in the future or something similar but I won't support any design change that invalidates the existing MEC token build. That's just simply too big of an expense to force on a subset of players.

The change to the Eldritch set bonus along with the change to LoDS is not too dissimilar to what you are describing with the HP boosting items. I know I purchased an Eldritch item on the secondary market for the set bonus (+10 to healing) only to have it changed and I am sure I am not the only one. I would recommend only making this level of radical change if there is a very compelling game reason.

Did the change to the Eldritch healing cause 6 of your tokens to suddenly be not worth being in your build due to the lenses no longer doubling all spell bonus or the Eldritch set giving less +healing?

The changes lowered power, they did not negatively affect the usefulness of other equipped tokens.

A Change to the MEC HP-Damage design would negatively affect the usefulness of multiple currently used tokens.

Those two comparisons are not the same.

Anthony Barnstable wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: It actually seems like the new MEC isn't that different from the old MEC. The old MEC probably just didn't support the Character card changes. With current cards, the old MEC did an additional damage up to 20 for 10 HP, which is where the Relic/Legendary are now. If the MEC weren't modified, and the spell damage on the cards doubled, all of the sudden the MEC could do 40 bonus damage for the 10 HP.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the new MEC ability is even better than the old MEC, not worse. It's not nerfed, it's kind of super-charged. That is, if the "up to 14 HP" part is reusable and not once per room. If it's reusable, it can be on every spell, even multiple spells per turn. It also can do up to 14 bonus damage on each spell (28 for Relic/Legendary), where the old MEC only doubled the base + SK of the original spell, which on the old cards maxed out at 20 and could have been a lot lower. Plus, of course, once per combat, you can sacrifice unlimited HP for damage, and get it as free action.

Is that how everyone else reads this? Did the Wizards get a power boost and not a nerfing? If so, I'm not complaining if Jeff thinks that's necessary to get the Wizards to the power level he wants them at, I'm just making an observation.

The way I am currently reading it:
MEC - Mage Power 1/room = Spend X hp for X dmg and if X >= 15, this spell is FA

Relic - can do a Mage Power 1/round, each Mage Power 1/room =
1: MEC but X hp -> 2X damage, if X >= 15 HP spell is FA
2: Spend 15 HP -> FA your SA spell has SR 50%, no bonus damage
3: Spend 15 HP -> FA your slide spell crits on 18-20

Arch Mage Powers
4: Spend 15 HP -> change damage type
5: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> cast spell without marking it off card
6: Spend 0/15/30/45 -> add this spell’s damage to another character’s physical attack

this does not mesh with the current wording of the newly updated token images on page 10 and is the core question of the group right now